iPod/mp3 player use in Ontario Casinos

WonkoTheSane

Hey All

I really missed not being able to use my iPod at BCC, not to look like I'm "on TV" or anything but it just made the time go by a bit faster when playing for four or five hours.  I usually keep one ear piece in and leave the other out so I can still hear the talk at the table while playing.  Anyway I thought I would give a bit of info to everyone on what I have been doing with regards trying to get to use my iPod in Ontario Casinos.

I asked the pit boss at BCC why they could no longer allow the use of Personal Audio Players (PAP), and was told that the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corp. (OLGC) have informed them that they are not to allow these types of devices to be used.  So I decided to contact the OLGC to see what could be done.  After two phone calls I was given the following persons phone number and she requested I put my request in an email to her.  This was my email to her:

Dear Ms. Gagesch

Until recently the Brantford Charity Casino had been allowing patrons to use person audio players in the poker room of their casino. On Sunday of this week I was asked to remove my headset and turn off my player as they have been informed that the OLGC forbids the use of such devices in charity casinos.

At this time I am looking for your assistance in two areas: first, could you please tell me if this rule does exist and if so, where I could obtain a copy of the Terms and Conditions for Charity Casinos and which section refers to the use of personal audio players, and secondly if the above term does exist, who I would contact and in what form, to attempt to have this policy reviewed and perhaps amended.

Should you require any further information or have any questions for me in regards to this matter please feel free to contact me by phone at 905 ***-**** (daytime) or 905 ***-**** (evenings) or by e-mail at ******@********

Sincerely,
John Montgomery

After about 1 week I received the following response:

John,

I am responding on behalf of Gloria Gagesch on your recent email asking
about the policies related to iPods on the gaming floor within Ontario.

All gaming within Ontario must operate within the Gaming Control Act which
was written and is enforced by the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of
Ontario.  This act has a section which states the following:

22. (1) An operator of a gaming premises shall not permit any person to use
gaming equipment at the premises if the equipment has been, in
any way, tampered with so that it could affect,
(a) its integrity, security or accounting capability; or
(b) the outcome or payout of a game of chance held at the premises.
(2) The operator shall not permit any person to use an electrical,
mechanical or other device, including a calculator or a computer, in the
gaming premises if the device could assist in projecting the outcome of a
game of chance, keep track of cards that have been dealt or change
probabilities or playing strategies used in a game of chance. O. Reg.
385/99, s. 22.

Recently this portion of the act was considered to be in force for any
electronic device which may cause an integrity issue related to the
operation of any gaming within Ontario.  The Alcohol and Gaming Commission
of Ontario requested the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation to enforce
this rule related to walkmans, ipods and any other like equipment.  Since
OLGC must abide by the regulations and the requirements laid out by it's
gaming regulator the OLGC has enforced this requirement including the use
of iPods on all gaming floor including Brantford Charity Casino.

Should you be interested in pursuing further explanation or gaining a
better understanding why AGCO has deemed this device to fall within the
gaming act outlined above I would suggest you send an email to Lydia Boni of the AGCO at the
following address ****@*******.

Sincerely,
Cameron Uhren
VP Gaming Operations OLGC

I have followed that up by sending the following email to Lydia Boni at the AGCO and sending a copy to Cameron Uhren at the OLGC:

Dear Ms. Boni

I have been in contact with Cameron Uhren of the OLGC with regards to the use of iPod/Portable Music Players (PMPs) in Ontario Charity Casinos, primarily in the poker rooms of these casinos. I had enquired as to the section of the gaming act which bans such devices. In Mr. Uhren’s response to me, he quoted the following section of the act:

22. (1) An operator of a gaming premises shall not permit any person to use
gaming equipment at the premises if the equipment has been, in
any way, tampered with so that it could affect,
(a) its integrity, security or accounting capability; or
(b) the outcome or payout of a game of chance held at the premises.
(2) The operator shall not permit any person to use an electrical,
mechanical or other device, including a calculator or a computer, in the
gaming premises if the device could assist in projecting the outcome of a
game of chance, keep track of cards that have been dealt or change
probabilities or playing strategies used in a game of chance. O. Reg.
385/99, s. 22.

He indicated that the AGCO have asked the OLGC to include iPods/PMPs under this guideline.

I would like to enquire at this time as to why these devices have been included in this regulation, as they do not seem to fit the criteria as outlined. The first section is not applicable as an iPod is not a gaming device and the second section does not appear to be applicable either as an iPod/PMP will not assist anyone to predict the outcome of a poker game, keep track of cards dealt or change the probability of a game of chance.

I would be very interested in any information you could give me in regard to this matter and also what my best course of action would be to have this, or any other ruling pertaining to the use of iPods/ PMPs in Ontario Casino’s updated so that these devices may be used.

Should you have any further questions, please feel free to contact me at 905 ***-**** (day), 905 ***-**** (evenings) or by email at *******@********

Sincerely,
John Montgomery

The last email was set on April 7, and I have not recieved a response as yet.  I will post a response once I get one if there is any interest in this post from the rest of the forum members.

Soup

stick it to the man!

SuperBad

Hey there,

I would actually side with the BCC/OLGC on this one.

Not because I believe that iPods present a threat to me or anyone else.  But because if I were managing the casinos, I'd want to avoid the possible controversy which could erupt based on some paranoid delusional thoughts of a certain percentage of the players. 

Essentially, I could easily see some players somehow believing that a player with an earpiece is somehow receiving electronic info on the gameplay.  I know they aren't, you know they aren't, but some players could bring this up when losing, not believing that they are actually bad players, or are experiencing variance, but instead would insist that the player with the stack of chips and iPod is cheating.

Would it be any different if you plugged your earpiece to a cell phone, and left it on? Obviously that is against the rules, i dont see how that could affect gameplay, but it is not allowed. 

I see this as the casino merely protecting itself, I would too.....

I love the emails though, make them earn their pay which we subsidize....i'm bitter, its tax season....

Hobbes

Just remeber that an iPod is a very small computer that can be hacked and programmed just like any other.
I think that is why.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPodLinux


Hobbes

13CARDS

Three things:

1. As a poker player, I truly sympathize with those players that would like to use iPods at the poker tables. I too like to use my MP3 player while folding, folding, folding, folding around the green felt.

2. As a casino employee, I understand the casino's viewpoint on this matter. Although 99.9% of the general population do not, would not, could not (and actually don't believe!) that a cell phone, iPod or other electronic device could be used to cheat at slots, blackjack, poker, etc., the casino must protect its interests; specifically, the integrity of the games and the reliability of the outcomes. Due to the fact that all legal gaming in Ontario is offered on the behalf of the government, each casino must adhere to the rules and procedures as outlined by the AGCO. It is all about preceptions.

3.I hope this process will help you, WonkoTheSane, and maybe some of the other forum members, to realize how frustrating it can be to deal with (no pun intended! lol) the AGCO.

OUT

Hobbes

given a few weeks, I could turn an iPod into a card counter for blackjack

SocietyRed

This day and age anyone can turn a simple electronic device into a card counter. I don't mind the casino saying no to ipods etc.
I wonder why the WSOP people allow them. Are the rules in vegas different then here?

13CARDS

SocietyRed wrote:

Are the rules in vegas different then here?

VERY!!!!

GBHShftMgr

Just to clarify a bit...at last year's WSOP...Phil Helmuth (the iPod kid) did not wear the iPod at the table during the event)...neither did anybody else. During publicity shots and so forth he did have one on (it's his trademark or some such thing)....American WPT events on the other hand, the televised parts of which are never held in a Casino but rather in a studio, with directors and retakes and so forth, do all kinds of cool things for what they perceive as entertainment value...stuff that would never happen in a Casino. All it takes is one individual somewhere in the world to use a mini-cam and a xmitter/receiver to accomplish a cheat and policy will be not to allow anyone to use an earpiece on the gaming floor. Yes it has been done (for anyone who likes to read up on these things, research the Davidoff cigarette pack/mini-cam scam in Europe...the mini-cam up the sleeve in Palm Springs California...mini-cam in the purse in Europe, just to name a few that are well documented).

Finally in a fully regulated environment, the regulator sets the rules...the regulated follow the rules or are very soon out of business.

I understand this may not be the best answer to satisfy the question, but at least I hope this gives a bit of insight.

Cheers,

Lee

AcidJoe

While i sympathize with those who wish to use them I'm pretty sure the apparance that someone is receiving help from another person is enough to get them banned. One player recently told me after each song on his iPod he had recorded the word "FOLD" to ensure that he does "FOLD" enough.

BigChrisEl

I don't see the point of the Ipod’s at the poker table.

Poker is a social game; poker is also a game of observation.

Just sitting at the table listening to how players speak to each other and how they make their bets can give you valuable information.

Why would any one want to lose this information by being distracted because they are listening to music on their own personal music device?

Dick Hertz

I have recently started using an ipod while playing in some local underground tournies. I have the music on very low and I can hear everything that is said at the table. The interesting thing is that most people at the table seem to think I can not hear them. Sometimes I dont have any music playing at all I just wear the headphones so my neighbours dont bother me with their bad beat stories. I have played 5 tournament while wearing the ipod and have 2 final tables ( 1st and 4th) and one bust out on the bubble (11th). I have found that my focus and concentration is improved while listening to a selection of my favourite songs.