When to turn pro??
Hey everyone,
I joined this site a while ago but haven't posted much and thought i would start today, my question is kind of a weird one.....It goes out to all the pros on this site, When did you know it was time to turn pro? did you start having having winning more often then not? So i guess what i am really trying to ask is when did you know you were ready? and out of curiosity are you happier now being a pro? I am just curious about this as i have thought about it a lot. I have no intention of turning pro or anything just a curious kid. thanks in advance and best of luck to all of you.
I joined this site a while ago but haven't posted much and thought i would start today, my question is kind of a weird one.....It goes out to all the pros on this site, When did you know it was time to turn pro? did you start having having winning more often then not? So i guess what i am really trying to ask is when did you know you were ready? and out of curiosity are you happier now being a pro? I am just curious about this as i have thought about it a lot. I have no intention of turning pro or anything just a curious kid. thanks in advance and best of luck to all of you.
Comments
Oops, I'll try and read the entire post next time. It's Monday.
You are an ASS Â BBC Z!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is a new player to the forum asking a simple question.  He isn't stating that he wants to go pro.  He is asking how do you know when it is the right time to go pro which is a legitimate question.  There is a whole list of things that anyone who is thinking of going pro should ask themselves.  I know, I played blackjack for a living for 6 months.  I also a know a few poker players who decided to turn pro and there is a whole thought process that goes into this decision.  It is not about how much you can win.  There is way more to it than that, I talked to a guy this weekend who was making 1000.00 US a week and he talked about the stress it put in his life.  He was single.  What if you are married, now it’s not just you you have to worry about you have a wife, kids and all the financial responsibilities that go with it?  How many families have been broken up because of gambling related issues?  I don’t care how good you thing you are at poker, blackjack, craps, the horses, you will lose money.  Not everyone is equipped to handle losses. Â
Give the guy something to think about instead of insulting him with your useless garbage.  And by the way, you lost your heads up match not because you were tired but because you don’t have the emotional stamina and mental toughness and you lost to a far superior player plain and simple!!!
Prophet 22
And you are an idiot. So I guess we're even. I said that I misread the original post. Grow up and move on.
..and since you brought it up
I got my chips in with the lead every time against G2. I don't control the flops.
Wowie. Over-reaction of the Year. Dude, eat a cookie today, or something... just calm down.
1) get your education you need something to fall back on.
2) have enough money saved to pay all your expenses for 1 year.
3) have a bit bankroll. you can actually make a decent living playing simple 5/10 limit holdem.
in general the info I got basically said if you got 30k for BR and have met criteria 1 and 2. then your prolly ok to take a year off and give it a shot.
If anyone debates my thought I'd love to hear it but please no name calling.. I left the 5th grade about 22 years ago...
It'snot very hard for an average discliplined online player tomake 60k a year playing full time, that's not a great living, but it'smuch easier than making the NHL.
No shit. But this'll slide, because it's OK to flame BBC here since he's the blunt, no-nonsense "bad guy" on the board... And FWIW the advice:
while blunt, it's absolutely true, and BBC already re-read the post and saw it was more of a curiosity thing than anything...
Back on topic, as far as the OP:
1) Yup.
2) Yup, unfortunately variance doesn't care that you need money on a regular basis to pay bills, rent, etc. I think you'd need to have some pretty good discretionary spending so you don't go crazy on a hot month, and
then start cringing when the poker gods hate you for a 2-3 month stretch.
3) 5-10? Probably online (more hands), but not sure how grand your life would be making a living live at this level. I seem to remember Magi saying 10-20 is usually where you'll find live regulars "grindiing it out".
Disclaimer: I am not a pro. I don't think I could handle the day to day grind. I'm very happy having a steady paycheque, poker winnings are the icing on the cake...
Just some of my opinions. Â I would have to say it's extremely hard for an average disciplined online player to make 60k a year playing full time. Â It takes much more than that, especially since the skill level of the field keeps improving. Â You cannot make a decent living playing simple 5/10 limit holdem.
Playing for a living takes a wide range of skill sets and playing poker is just one of them. Â I won't get into it here, but you might want to give some of Sklansky's writings on gambling for a living a read, as well as Feeney's essays. Â Then, there's Greenstein's "Ace on the River". Â
If you've been a successfull player for 2+ years, then I'd say you have a shot at taking a shot. Â That's the starting point. Â
Personally, I'd say staying in school, working a 9 to 5 is a good grounding to get the additional skills you need. Â They go from people management to self management, and being able to work in very stressfull situations. Â Best to get those skills while you're guaranteed a salary. Â And, you'll have the added benefit of getting some awesome achievements you can look back on. Â Many of the big pros who skipped the regular grind, will have missed out on life.
The beauty of poker is that there's no qualifications you need and no age limits. Â You can decide you want to be a pro when you're 30, 40, 50, 60. Â No one will say no you can't. Â So, as you're getting better, learning more life skills, poker will always be waiting. Â Then again, if it's an itch you must scratch, well you need to decide. Â Check out www.twoplustwo.com ' s magazine as they have many articles on turning pro. Â But realize, it's just like smoking. Â Once you chose that path, it's very hard to go back to a regular way of life.
Cheers
Magi
30K?
So your saying your bankroll + living expenses can be 30K
I'd say that's way too low. I'd budget 40K living expenses (for a single guy, no wife, no dependents) Ok he could have a wife, but she'd have to make her own money.
THEN another 20K bankroll.
PS. You know you suck when the 20K is gone. The only criteria for being good enough is, can you do it.
No those should have been seperate points.. it's expensise + 30k
and I was talking 5/10 online and mutli tabling. I live no where near a casino so I reffer mainly to online and if you think about it yes you can.
If you average the 1bb profit per hour which I believe is below the expected win rate of a really good pro player then your seeing 20$ and hour TAX FREE.. now I do not make 20$ and hour tax free at my present job and I do well.. I have a house a car ect.. so if i could make 20$ and hour playiong online poker 2 talbe 5/10 I'd be in heaven.
Awesome post, thanks a lot.
If you define full-time as 35-40h a week and you can average 1bb/table/h then playing as few as 3 tables of 5 10 limit you are making well over 60k USD a year...not that difficult to beat that limit for that amount and the fields at this time are definitely not tough at low limits. Obviously such a player would require many character traits of a winning poker player. As for the future, within a couple years its probable that the online fields will get tougher, I can't speak for that. Not a lifestyle many would want, but it's very doable.
Be careful on the tax free thinking. If you decide to do this for a living there will be an argument that this would be income and therefore taxable as income.
you can say you make 30K a year playing poker and there is no real way to prove it.. yet.
The numbers don't jive. Â This is one of those life skills I learned at work, where I could review a business case in about 15 minutes and figure out if it had any potential. Â
Assuming the person in question is not a pro, then their multi-tabling is done in the off hours for relatively short bursts -- say 4-5 hours per day. Â Some days 8-10 and some 1-2. Â But the majority is likely 4-5 hours. Â
If they have a party, or get tired, they don't play. Â There's no need for any other socializing, as the majority of that is done at work and friends help with the rest.
As a pro, he/she MUST play 35-40 hours per week.  What happends on a bad run -- does he stop or keep playing.  If he keeps playing he's likely going to blow more money on tilt, but if he stops he won't earn any money.  And the less he earns, the more he has to earn later.  Yeah, this is similiar to the 4-5 hour per day non-pro playing, but it is also very very different. Then how does he plan time with friends. "ah I'm on a hot streak, and really can't make that party" or "I was up all night getting unstuck and I need to sleep today". It's not insurmountable, but it puts alot of pressure on the playing. Some can deal with the pressure and realize the same BB/100 as a pro, but it's way far from certainty for anyone who averages that much as a non pro. And, those players are way above average -- likely in the 20% percentile of poker players.
You just can't say I make 1 BB hr playing 4 tables per day and extrapolate. Â I saw so many business cases which did that -- especially in the Internet days. Â It doesn't add up.
Cheers
Magi
I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would WANT to be a professional poker player. OK, let's say you worked your ass off and made a lot of money, and now you're like 45 to 50 years old. You could retire early, or you could begin your new life as a poker pro. I can dig that. That's cool.Â
But I can't figure out why anyone who is in the prime of their life would want to be a full-time committed poker player. And, like the OP, I've thought about it a lot. The pressure to produce results must be tremendous. And there is the danger that you will start to view EVERYTHING in terms of BB/hr. Like: "Well, I COULD go out to see a movie, but that would cost me 3BB's or so for the time I'd be spending not playing".Â
Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe it doesn't have to be this way. I just can't understand why any successful poker hobbyist wouldn't want to keep it that way. Why look a gift horse in the mouth? It's so easy to find flexible, rewarding work in the world... keep a job (even part-time), play poker sometimes, and most of all, enjoy life. Sitting in front of a computer or in a casino playing poker is enjoyable, but after you do it for too long it all becomes one big grind.Â
IMHO.
Well stated, I absolutely agree!
All of your arguments assume that the person in question isn't viewing poker as a professional player. You wouldn't have a party and not go to work, neither would a pro player go to a party during a peak hour for his profession, etc,etc. I'm not saying that anyone can or would want to do it, I'm just saying that a person with the correct mentality CAN do it.
Interesting point.
I was at a movie this weekend and I looked in front of me and some dude was playing poker on his blackberry during the movie. No need to make that choice for him.
From an insiders perspective (technologically speaking) the next generation of poker (and gambling in general) software is slated to make it even more accessible and unobtrusive for those wishing to find action.
I know far too many people who supplement their 'day job' with a few hours of $100 SnG's or 3 or 4 $5 nl tables. There is a super fine line between playing poker as a professional and playing poker all the time. The interesting part of using athletes as a comparison is that they all have off-seasons.
I would assert that you would likely need a break from the computer (or table) after a while. That would throw off any of the income calculations stated here. Unless, of course, you bring your computer on vacation with you, in which case you may have a problem in addition to being a pro.
lol. Â I do this to myself all the time, but it deals with deciding whether to go out and play a live tournament, when I know I can make more BB's sitting at home
I think for most of us, it's the not knowing. Â So if you see an opportunity why not take the shot. Â You and Magi, make very good points. Â Yes, the whole dynamic of what was once recreational poker, becomes a pressure cooker. Â I know all poker hobbiest love the game (duh, why have hobby you hate). Â It just translates nicely, why not make a living doing something love. Â Just because you go pro, doesn't mean poker has to obsorb what was your life. Â My point is, no one knows until you try both. Â Most of us are talking from the rec. side of the fence. Â If you take your shot, you make find out you adjust well the the added pressure, you still maintain a healthy social life, you may work a way around the losses streaks. Â Or you may find all the pitfalls are true. Â At least from having taken a shot, you now know.
I have a friend who's taken a shot, and now after a year has come back. Â I don't think anyone can tell you if it's for you, or if you'll be successful. Â They can only tell you their experience, and what to look out for.