Set vs Set - Possible to Escape?
I have been 9 tabling $25 PL on Party the past couple weeks (sadly one of the best ways to obtain various VIP goals as all NL/PL games are rewarded the same regardless of buy in). Flopped sets are by far the best money makers in the game and aside from a crazy coordinated board I will pretty much go all in with a set post flop happily.
This hand though I am kind of reconsidering after the fact based on the opponent.
The opponent in this case also plays 9-10 tables of PL and plays them well. He is hardly reckless and like me he bets as big as possible to pressure weaker players on draws or with dominated hands.
The thing is he knows I am that type of player as well given how often we sit at many of the same tables.
The hand is the following
***** Hand History for Game 3791622207 *****
$25 PL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, March 21, 16:02:19 ET 2006
Table Woodcutter (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 10: Monteroy ( $27.10 )
Seat 6: Governor911 ( $32.26 )
Seat 3: modukon ( $11.47 )
Seat 8: onetime1121 ( $11.43 )
Seat 7: hippie0420 ( $65.31 )
Seat 1: svp11 ( $23.45 )
Seat 2: Dd_Ll_Kk ( $27.60 )
Seat 4: BReisner423 ( $16.12 )
Seat 5: tbg2626 ( $9.65 )
Seat 9: Spyde_ ( $19.40 )
onetime1121 posts small blind [$0.10].
Spyde_ is sitting out.
Monteroy posts big blind [$0.25].
Spyde_ has left the table.
Governor911 posts big blind + dead [$0.35].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Monteroy [Â 4c 4s ]
svp11 calls [$0.25].
Dd_Ll_Kk raises [$0.50].
modukon folds.
BReisner423 folds.
tbg2626 folds.
Governor911 folds.
hippie0420 calls [$0.50].
onetime1121 folds.
Monteroy calls [$0.25].
svp11 calls [$0.25].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, Ad, 5c ]
Monteroy checks.
svp11 checks.
Dd_Ll_Kk bets [$2].
hippie0420 folds.
Monteroy raises [$5].
svp11 folds.
Dd_Ll_Kk raises [$15.35].
Monteroy is all-In.
Dd_Ll_Kk calls [$9.25].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8h ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ah ]
Dd_Ll_Kk shows [ As, Ac ] four of a kind, aces.
Monteroy doesn't show [ 4c, 4s ] a full house, Fours full of aces.
Dd_Ll_Kk wins $52.90 from the main pot with four of a kind, aces.
I guess in hindsight this is where I begin to wonder about my play post flop. I have no problem with the check raise but once he reraise shoves like that I wonder that had I stopped for a moment (which is kind of hard when 9 tabling :P) then perhaps I can realize that a player of his type knowing the type of player I am would not play a draw or even AK as he played the hand. He must realize I can beat AK and there is almost no chance he flopped 2 pairs or a straight with that flop and the best flush draw say KQ he still would not play as he did preflop (or post flop for that matter).
I am hardly advocating folding sets post flop casually, but I am wondering given the dynamics of the players and the betting and the flop if it would have been possible to do so in this case without being insane.
They say if you flop a set vs a higher set and do not lose a ton of money you have done something wrong. I am wondering if this has to apply in every caseÂ
Thanks in advance
This hand though I am kind of reconsidering after the fact based on the opponent.
The opponent in this case also plays 9-10 tables of PL and plays them well. He is hardly reckless and like me he bets as big as possible to pressure weaker players on draws or with dominated hands.
The thing is he knows I am that type of player as well given how often we sit at many of the same tables.
The hand is the following
***** Hand History for Game 3791622207 *****
$25 PL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, March 21, 16:02:19 ET 2006
Table Woodcutter (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 10: Monteroy ( $27.10 )
Seat 6: Governor911 ( $32.26 )
Seat 3: modukon ( $11.47 )
Seat 8: onetime1121 ( $11.43 )
Seat 7: hippie0420 ( $65.31 )
Seat 1: svp11 ( $23.45 )
Seat 2: Dd_Ll_Kk ( $27.60 )
Seat 4: BReisner423 ( $16.12 )
Seat 5: tbg2626 ( $9.65 )
Seat 9: Spyde_ ( $19.40 )
onetime1121 posts small blind [$0.10].
Spyde_ is sitting out.
Monteroy posts big blind [$0.25].
Spyde_ has left the table.
Governor911 posts big blind + dead [$0.35].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Monteroy [Â 4c 4s ]
svp11 calls [$0.25].
Dd_Ll_Kk raises [$0.50].
modukon folds.
BReisner423 folds.
tbg2626 folds.
Governor911 folds.
hippie0420 calls [$0.50].
onetime1121 folds.
Monteroy calls [$0.25].
svp11 calls [$0.25].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, Ad, 5c ]
Monteroy checks.
svp11 checks.
Dd_Ll_Kk bets [$2].
hippie0420 folds.
Monteroy raises [$5].
svp11 folds.
Dd_Ll_Kk raises [$15.35].
Monteroy is all-In.
Dd_Ll_Kk calls [$9.25].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8h ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ah ]
Dd_Ll_Kk shows [ As, Ac ] four of a kind, aces.
Monteroy doesn't show [ 4c, 4s ] a full house, Fours full of aces.
Dd_Ll_Kk wins $52.90 from the main pot with four of a kind, aces.
I guess in hindsight this is where I begin to wonder about my play post flop. I have no problem with the check raise but once he reraise shoves like that I wonder that had I stopped for a moment (which is kind of hard when 9 tabling :P) then perhaps I can realize that a player of his type knowing the type of player I am would not play a draw or even AK as he played the hand. He must realize I can beat AK and there is almost no chance he flopped 2 pairs or a straight with that flop and the best flush draw say KQ he still would not play as he did preflop (or post flop for that matter).
I am hardly advocating folding sets post flop casually, but I am wondering given the dynamics of the players and the betting and the flop if it would have been possible to do so in this case without being insane.
They say if you flop a set vs a higher set and do not lose a ton of money you have done something wrong. I am wondering if this has to apply in every caseÂ
Thanks in advance
Comments
Edit: OK I posted blind. After reading the post my answer is not surprisingly still no. Make a note that he only doubled with AA though, if he only does that with AA then maybe next time you can.
Umm, it's pot limit, and he's in EP, so it's not like he could have raised much more.
Note: I don't know much about PL, but does it even make much sense to raise this hand in EP, or is it better to just limp (and hope to reraise).
Actually in this case, he could have raised up to $1.35 with the UTG limper and the player posting BB and dead SB in LP
As far as the actual hand, I don't think it is possible to get away here without knowing that he is the type to only
double the blind with AA. If I've played with him enough to know that he'd only EVER double the blinds preflop with
AA or KK (and I know he's folding KK to the check raise) then I might be able to get away.
I don't think there is any way that anyone could make a play that is this non-standard while 9-tabling without making an enormous amount of errors in the long run. Stick with fundamentals when playing a large number of tables. In particular, middle set is just plain old middle set.
ScottyZ
Oh, I agree, and in fact I did not even think about the hand much till after I finished playing a couple of hours later, though I did wonder if that fold was possible under a less hectic situation. The thing that struck me was I had a feeling that something was wrong on that hand that I did not have on any of my other trips hands (all of which I won except one other set vs set and a couple of crazy 4567 all spade boards where I gave up).
Basic play big hands big with minimal funny stuff really is an easy path in those games I am finding.
Actually it was bottom set, which makes this a very easy fold.
Oops. Sorry, I was reading 9 forums at the time.
ScottyZ
Mutli-"foruming?" That's awesome.
FWIW, I'd go broke in this situation
JohnnieH
Literally...
He says "idiot"
Mark
sonofa!
M