How long do you bet it?
I had KQ off in the small blind at the 2/5 @ Rama last week. 6 see the flop. The flop comes K,Q,Q. I lead out (a mistake) and it's folded to the button (Mr Any Two Will Do) who calls. The turn comes the 9. I check, button raises, I reraise (another mistake) and he calls. The turn comes a J. We raise each other till he just calls at $35 we both had another $50 or so. In retrospect I realize how I misplayed the hand from the flop on, so my question is how long do you keep on betting before you think the other player has KK? If you had KK, how long would you keep betting until you think the other has QQ?
I'll post what he had tomorrow in case anyone cares.
I'll post what he had tomorrow in case anyone cares.
Comments
You have KQ in the SB, and there were 4 limper in front of you. Personally, with KQ I usually raise, but with that many players, I would probably just call (You're not getting rid of anyone with a raise at a LL B&M game), and the BB checks right? So, no pre-flop raising I'm assuming?
Then, you flop a miracle flop of a boat, and bet (right play IMO - if you're at a table with 6 limpers, SOMEONE is gonna call with their A-6o, and hopefully someone hit some of that flop), the dealer is the only one to call, so you've eliminated 4 players. This is also good. The pot is now up to $16 (6 limpers X $2 each = $12, your bet called once adds $4). Turn comes a 9, potentially filling his straight, you check (fine with that, let him think you have two pair maybe), and he bets $5, you raise to $10, he calls, making the pot $36. A J hits really giving a lot of straight opportuninties, which is GREAT for you. Now, you've not mentioned suits of any kind, so I'm going to rule out any straight flush.
So, all the cards are out, and there's only one hand that can beat you - KK. There was no pre-flop raising, he didn't re-raise you on a flop where he hit the nuts, and only became aggressive once you showed "weakness". Now there's a re-raising war to get in for $35 each? This puts the pot up another $70 to a total of $106. This is a very good thing, and I in this case am willing to put all my money in. The BEST hand I can put him on is KQ as well.
I don't think you played this hand wrong from the start, I think you got as much money in as you can, and I will be shocked if you tell me this donk has KK. I would never think KK here since he was on deal and didn't raise, unless I had seen him consistantly slowplay big pocket pairs. I would still say he's a donk you have to raise pre-flop from the dealer position, you should be capping / re-raising on the expensive streets once it's obvious that the other guy is coming along for the ride.
I hope that I get to say "nice takedown of about $100 after the rake".
Mark
If he had either of those hands he would have capped the betting on the flop and the turn.
I'm thinking he may have made a straight with Ace-10 or some other hand like that and he doesn't realize that there is a boat out there. I would keep betting until all my chips are in the middle. If he does have K, K or Q, Q then nothing you can do but go broke.
Mark
(That would make 5 Q's)
This is an amazingly important point. I know that I fall into the trap of giving my opponents credit for an amazing hand, instead of thinking it through.
In this situation, yeah, he could have KK and a higher boat, but there are a whole range of other hands he could have. I'd bet this until all my money was in the middle.
That being said, yet another reason for raising is that you give yourself odds later in the hand. Â This is especially true if there are many limpers. Â I had a hand yesterday at BCC where I raised preflop when there were six players in the hand, and I was in the cutoff. Â I gave myself position as I bought the button and I also built a nice pot for the hand I had. Â As it turned out, I knew my opponent had made a flush on the turn and I had two-pair. Â Good thing I had all those other callers in the hand pre-flop, as it gave me 12 to 1 to call the turn bet. Â And bam, on the the river I made my full house and got paid for the pleasure. Â If I don't raise pre-flop, I can't make that call. Â Thank you limpers.
I would NEVER rule out ANY hand my opponent has, especially in LL. Â Bets later in the hand, are more telling than bets earlier in the hand. Â So, when there's conflicting information I usually listen to the information I'm getting later in the hand.
I like betting out on the flop.  I would bet the turn as well, as I want to get three bets in on the turn.  By check-raising you're limiting yourself, as most players will stop the betting there as they will be suspicous you have the big hand.  When you go three bets it just looks like you're an overaggressive whipper snapper who's  tyring to bluff his way into winning the pot.
He wouldn't raise KK on you on the flop as he has the nuts and is just as worried  as you are about scaring you away.  Once he goes four bets, you really need to assess his aggression factor.  Given most low limit players will not go this far with a straight you can rule that out.  So, he's got a boat.  Is he smart enough to figure out there's a bigger boat out there?  At four bets, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and start going into check/call mode to get to the showdown.
Here's my thinking. Â If he's that dumb to keep pounding with a smaller boat, he'll give you more chips later -- maybe not directly, but he'll put them in play. Â If the odds are stacked against you and you got out-tricked, well it's better not lose the meta-game. Â You'll beat yourself up more by losing a few extra bets to the bozo, than you will gain when you are ahead.
Cheers
Magi
There is no larger boat and only one hand can beat him and that is K,K.
Anyways do tell.. Interesting..
Exactly.
KQ against 5 limpers... You don't have to have the BEST hand to make a raise +EV do you? Wouldn't you have more than your share of pot equity against random hands to make a raise profitable?
Maybe. I think KQs is an easy raise here for the reasons you mentioned. Offsuit and I'm not overly sure if you want to build a giant pot while being OOP.
Not sure if you're serious, but hey I'll bite(it's even my name!). I did mention later in the post that you don't have to have the best hand to raise because other players will give you odds. However, you're all giving the best hand odds. In early position, I tend to want to have the best hand when I'm raising as I find it extremely difficult to realilze any pot equity advantage I have. Position is extremely important for me.
KQ was one of my favourite hands. I raised it very often from the blinds and in early position. Only after many, many hands, did I find out it was not profitable for me. It might be my style, perhaps a lack of skill. Not sure. However, I knocked that hand out of my raising standards from the blinds and fold KQo in early position. I have much better results in those positions these days.Â
That being said, if there's only a late limper and I'm in the SB, I'm raising two paint cards. They do well in short handed situations.
Cheers
Magi
Bang on Beanie (QJ). After reading your responses I don't feel bad about how I played the hand. He thought I had the Q9 when I check raised the turn and that's why I was able to squeeze a few more bets out of him than normal. I'm a little surprised that nobody thought that he had KQ as well. That was the last possibility that I considered but I figured I might as well keep on betting as the max rake had been reached.
Wait a sec....
Does this mean I'm nobody?
Mark
Well, nobody's perfect. Nice site by the way.