I've been catching up on some forum fighting and I have this to say...
Scotty took off his hat, 13 cards is quiet for a while, people continue to flame, bitch, moan, insult and make banal comments irrespective of anything any of us will say.
I won't say that I have had many problems with individuals here, because for the most part, I am a live and let live kinda guy. I think we all must be to some degree, otherwise a public forum would be torture to read. I know that people will not agree with everything I have said or that I believe. And I am aware that we are all a little defensive about stuff, few people like to be criticized or made fun of.Â
I am tired of people responding to issues without considering either the feelings, sense (or lack) of humor, personal bias, or past experience of other posters on this forum.
We have now lost a quality moderator1 (not easy to find or replace) due to BS that was mostly avoidable. I believe that we are a stubborn bunch. It makes for some fun discussions, but instead of just smiling and taking the criticism, insult, or whatever comment pisses us off, we overreact, hit below the belt, and bait or inflame the situation.
I do not fault moderators for banning people. This is NOT a free country. This is a site owned and operated by a nice guy from Ontario. We are not a democracy. We do NOT pay for this board. We are a very diverse group of people here. There are Jews, Muslims, Christians, Whites, non-whites (let me kow if you want me to list colours), men, women, moms, dads, professionals, labourers, students, liars, thieves, and all around decent humans. We don't have to act like a kindergarten and get along with everyone. But we do need to have a modicum of respect for other members of this board. I can disagree with someone and show them why I believe their play, attitude, or pattern of thinking is not similar to my own, but it is a fine line between that and a personal attack.
We are all over 18 here. Some of us are responsible adults (well, we all are, but to varying degrees). I, for one, have resolved to think a little more before I type. And I tend to not get involved in flame wars in the first place. I read what the more irritating2 forum members have to say, and unless it is something of substance (read: not a personal insult) it is worth ignoring. Simple. Honest.
Sloth, A_A, and Scharf, start dropping the hammer where needed. Everyone else, use your damn heads. If it is something that you feel contributes to the conversation (and I include lame jokes most of the time), post it. If it is something you would not say to someone's face, think 2x about it.Â
It's time to grow up.
Noah E
**** legal disclaimer ****
I am not a lawyer.Â
1 - owing to Scotty's absence, I will now take up the task of using footnotes properly.
2 - personal opinion shared by some on this forum - no names will be mentioned.
I won't say that I have had many problems with individuals here, because for the most part, I am a live and let live kinda guy. I think we all must be to some degree, otherwise a public forum would be torture to read. I know that people will not agree with everything I have said or that I believe. And I am aware that we are all a little defensive about stuff, few people like to be criticized or made fun of.Â
I am tired of people responding to issues without considering either the feelings, sense (or lack) of humor, personal bias, or past experience of other posters on this forum.
We have now lost a quality moderator1 (not easy to find or replace) due to BS that was mostly avoidable. I believe that we are a stubborn bunch. It makes for some fun discussions, but instead of just smiling and taking the criticism, insult, or whatever comment pisses us off, we overreact, hit below the belt, and bait or inflame the situation.
I do not fault moderators for banning people. This is NOT a free country. This is a site owned and operated by a nice guy from Ontario. We are not a democracy. We do NOT pay for this board. We are a very diverse group of people here. There are Jews, Muslims, Christians, Whites, non-whites (let me kow if you want me to list colours), men, women, moms, dads, professionals, labourers, students, liars, thieves, and all around decent humans. We don't have to act like a kindergarten and get along with everyone. But we do need to have a modicum of respect for other members of this board. I can disagree with someone and show them why I believe their play, attitude, or pattern of thinking is not similar to my own, but it is a fine line between that and a personal attack.
We are all over 18 here. Some of us are responsible adults (well, we all are, but to varying degrees). I, for one, have resolved to think a little more before I type. And I tend to not get involved in flame wars in the first place. I read what the more irritating2 forum members have to say, and unless it is something of substance (read: not a personal insult) it is worth ignoring. Simple. Honest.
Sloth, A_A, and Scharf, start dropping the hammer where needed. Everyone else, use your damn heads. If it is something that you feel contributes to the conversation (and I include lame jokes most of the time), post it. If it is something you would not say to someone's face, think 2x about it.Â
It's time to grow up.
Noah E
**** legal disclaimer ****
I am not a lawyer.Â
1 - owing to Scotty's absence, I will now take up the task of using footnotes properly.
2 - personal opinion shared by some on this forum - no names will be mentioned.
Comments
I know that most people here agree with the spirit of what I have written. Certain inflamitory members of our community even believe it too. They just interpret their own actions differently than you or I tend to.
Besides, if enough people get to their breaking point than this forum disintegrates and my 500 posts were for nothing! And I wrote that after actually reading the garbage that went on over the last few weeks. It was all silliness. There was no reason for it to have happened in the first place.
I may fill in as a guerrilla, trench level moderator (unofficial, of course) and just make a point of stepping in to shut down flame wars. I dunno. I hate seeing intolerance and a lack of ettiquette take over a board on which I spend a fair amount of time.
I read all 11 pages of 13cards's posts and I find that he had some VERY useful and informative posts (to note the most relevant issue) and yet allowed a silly dispute to grow to where it did.
We behave like a pack of dogs sometimes, picking on an individual and relentlessly persuing them until either something else catches our attention or the person gets cowed into submission. As I said above, it's time to stop that.
2) I'd love to see some links to threads where 13 was so revolutionary.
3) WTF does "I may fill in as a guerrilla, trench level moderator (unofficial, of course) and just make a point of stepping in to shut down flame wars. " mean? So you got to 500 of the worlds most forgettable posts and now you think you can run the asylum?
Lemmie quote some Wolffhound for you "Thanks Mom."
That's the point of this forum. Â Discussion and debate.
if we could only stick to that...
Another issue of note (and perhaps I am alone in this observation) is that people will make a very cutting remark on topic and then when called on it claim that they were being constructive and that they were misunderstood. Â Not to single out anyone, but BBC1 is famous for this. Â I know he has thick skin and that he is actually trying to make points when he posts. Â People can't get past HOW he says things. Â I can read deeper than the words to see the message, but too many of us either can't or don't.
Again, take a minute and think about how someone might interpret your words. Â Equally important is HOW YOU SAY SOMETHIN$!!!
1 - For the record, I hold BBC's thought process in high regard and I admire his ability to disect a situation and see the relevant bits.
no sooner do I say something nice than this happens.
This is EXACTLY the problem.
You can say that so many other ways. The biting sarcasm is fine, but would there have been another way of making your point?
It happens that I have not been around all that much and didn't get a chance to voice my opinion while this was current.
Irrespective of that, would you ACTUALLY say that to my face? I don't think so.
In addition to that, what does my post count have anything to do with what I am writing? Honestly? Do I sound like I wish to run the asylum? Or do you think I am interested in not losing quality members of this board.
OK, maybe Scotty was sick of whatever BS took place, but to assume he decided to quit being a mod solely because of that seems a bit off. Scotty's always seemed to be a pretty level headed, thick skinned individual, so I imagine he likely had other reasons as well. He wasn't obligated to be a mod here, maybe he just had other things that were higher priority than this forum. Maybe it's just me, but I think Scotty's a big boy and can handle himself, and I don't think he needs the forum to run to his defense just because he made a decision to stop being a mod.
Also - on further thought, BBC, you are completely right. I admit it.
This post was a vent, through which I hope maybe some of the more hot-headed, flame ready members might read and digest my opinion.
I certainly don't need to be a mother hen (and I mean tat in 2 ways - I don't need the stress and I don't feel the need to do it).
And the trench mod comment was a moment of bravado. Excuse that as I drank more than my share of coffee this AM.
let the debate beginnnnnnnnn!
If you want to sum up why I quit moderating this forum in a short phrase, this is one of the best ways I can think of. To borrow your words again, another way would be that
This is not the case. Many of the users of the forum are, but there is no minimum age requirement. (And of course, no requirement to enter your actual year of birth into your forum profile.)
As I mentioned when they were designated as forum moderators, all_aces and Dave Scharf were (and still are) under no expectation from either me or Sloth to actually participate in forum moderation. (Also, one other reason that Dave S was made a global Mod was so that he is able to better manage his own forum section.) It was actually extremely valuable to me to have them classified as Mods simply so we could have discussions in a private "Mod Talk" section of the forum. Moderating the forum as little or as much as they like is completely their perrogative.
And clearly doing whatever the heck he feels like with the forum is Sloth's perrogative. :cool:
This is an excellent idea, and something everyonre can do. I'm not suggesting that everyone step into every flame war and start trying to calm everyone down, or (worse) flaming the flamers everyone yourself. I mean, use things like the "Report to Moderator" function to get the Mod's attention.
One the the great difficulties I had in moderating the forum was a lack of input from forum members. I have been accused of "abusing my power" by making unilateral decisions. Without any kind of input from the rest of the forum users, what the heck was I supposed to do?
Thanks for that. I'm glad I at least appear level-headed.
However, I am not at all thick skinned. I suppose that if I appear to be so while posting on an internet forum, this is merely a form of self defence. The reality is that I have been greatly hurt by my recent experiences on this forum. On the other hand, being thin skinned goes both ways, and I have been greatly inspired by all of the positive comments I've gotten recently, and I thank all of you for those.
ScottyZ
Soooooooo... you're coming back?
Not as a moderator, and I never really left yet otherwise I guess.
ScottyZ
You're welcome, but it really had nothing to do with you in particular. It has more to do with my desire to take personal responsibility in a forum I respect and enjoy.
I backed down a little from my bravado as I know what needs to be done, but I need not take the heat from the gentlemen who so richly deserve their reputation. I shall use my 'report to moderator' function liberally and hope that the boys don't get too irritated with me. As you correctly suggested.
I have spent 2 days now reading and rereading the inflammitory aspects of people's comments and have come to the conclusion that I have a problem with exactly 2 people out of the 2300+ registered ones. I am ignoring the one as I cannot figure out a useful way to deal with them. Granted from time to time they might actually have something constructive to say, but these instances are so few and far between that I am just simply not interested in suffering the rest of the junk. The other has long disappeared from my life.
I would encourage people to actually spend the 2 seconds and click the ignore function. It's painless and really useful. For the amount of, "I can't believe so-and-so has not been banned" I have read over the past 40 hours, I am amazed that people have not realized that you can ban someone from your screen. That stops flame wars.
IRL, I will be as nice and friendly as I always am, should the situation arise. It's a shame that we feel the need to be so adversarial online, as given the basis of our community here I would have figured it's an 'us against the world' sort of mentality. At least that is what I feel about it.
Part of the reason I suffer through idiocy here is that I try to understand both what is being said and why people say what they do. Â I looked at BBC Z's comments regarding my post and I can fathom no reason at all as to why he felt the need to chime in. Â
Unless I am mistaken, there was absolutely no value to what he wrote. Â There were three things said -
#1 was that he didn't understand why I would post 'after the fact' (being 48 hours after the episode came to a head) - apparently I am not entitled to read the boards and post something when I feel the urge. Â As for fanning the fire, I didn't think that my commenting that we as a group could benefit from some sensivity training was fuel for anything but thought. Â As for people fanning the fires on this board, my goodness. Â Mr. Pot, your soap box awaits.
#2 - I sent him a private message to the comments that 13 cards made that I thought were relevent, no response as yet. Â I will copy them here if anyone else comments.
#3 - This is the most puzzling part of the comment to me. Â I am not sure why the need to insult is constant in some people. Â I know he has a competent grasp of English. Â I also know he seems to be short stacked when it comes to understanding or interpreting the actual meaning of what people type. Â This is not limited to me, although I know my writing can be verbose at times. Â If he wanted some clarification, I would have been happy to provide it. Â The comment about my posting 500 forgettable posts means nothing. Â nothing at all. Â I hope he didn't hurt his wrist typing those meaningless words. Â I can tolerate people taking an attiude of, "what's it to you, why would you want to take responsibility" but I am not sure that is what he meant by this portion of his comment. Â I think he was taking a shot at me, although I am not sure why.
From reading the boards, he does seem to have friends in the real world and apparently he is just as surly as he is on the board. Â I can't begin to understand how life goes for this man. Â I hope he is at peace with how other people see him. Â I knew someone who is similar in disposition back when I was in my teens. Â I never understood the motivation. Â I am not willing to berate him at all - all I know of him is his words on the forum.
Perhaps in person he is more respectful, I am entirely curious. Â I have a hard time carrying grudges or hard feelings. Â When I made the original post he had nothing to do with it. Â Was is a feeling of personal guilt or some sort of awareness that he carries a reputation that fits what I was highliting that caused him to attack?
I will be unable to actually see what he responds, if he does. Â
Friends of BBC, could you enlighten me? Â I am actually serious here - PM me to let me know if this is the real him. Â how does one get on or off his targeting system? Â Is there a trigger that sets him off? Â Is there a feeling of superiority that directs his words or actions? Â I don't mean that as a put-down either.
I would welcome some sort of (non-confrontational - as I don't think we're at that stage yst) discussion with him in private, as I don't like to air my laundry in public. Â I am not sure how ignore works with PM, but he is welcome to add me on MSN - chubbs1002@hotmail.com. Â
Anyhow, these be the ramblings of an interested forum memebers.
No offense intended, but everyday you must be faced with the following situations:
Things you want to hear
Things you don't want to hear
Things you are indifferent to
You don't have an ignore button in real life, yet almost everyone is able to deal with their daily experiences in real life. The forum should be no different. Why you feel the need to put someone on ignore just so you don't see their posts is beyond my comprehension.
I completely agree with the fact that those in charge of this forum have every right to control whatever content they choose to. I also believe that the members of the forum should say whatever they feel the need to say. They must keep in mind what the consequences of their actions are, just like in society. If a forum moderator decides what was said was out of line, then he should be able to decide the punishment without 40 forum members questioning the decision.
That said,
If I want to call someone a prick because I think they are, then I will. If I want to make fun of someone for saying something stupid, then I will. But I am willing to face whatever consequence comes as a result of my action.
I think as a group, we need to toughen up a bit. Take criticism as a building block... not everyone is going to sugarcoat it when you make a horrible play in your .5/1 NL hand, we're going to tell it how it is.
Why don't you ladies go watch Sex In The City and have a good cry.
Gotta run, The View in on.
I had a neighbor who had an annoying dog. It didn't matter how nice or mean you were to it, it would always be yapping. After a while, you stop hearing it, and it becomes background noise. And then my neighbors dog got hit by a truck.Â
If you keep hearing the same sound, and that sound has no substance, it will just disappear. Certain people are like that, it just takes a while to identify them, than you stop hearing them. Just don't feel compelled to bark back, because it won't help. Don't waste time trying to tame it or befriend it, that won't work either. And don't try to reason with it or try to make it understand it's a yappy dog - dog's are dumb. Just learn to quickly identify the yappy dogs, ignore them, and wait for a truck.
There's a way to deal with things on the forum and in real life
Word.
You make some valid points, Chris. However, I see a big difference between constructive criticism or civil debate and what has gone on from time to time. One allows for collective growth and the other will end up driving people away.
I think he makes a LOT of valid points.
Hork and Beanie, both wise words. Thanks for the perspective. I had typed a whole thing explaining the basis of my rant, but in the end, you are both right.
My neigbour did have little yappy dogs. That actually gave me a moment of zen.
As far as asking members of BBC's social circle to add comments, I was really only curious if he's the same in person. I would like to believe that although I don't like how he says things online that he and I could be social or at least civil in person. I do have to deal with all kinds of people all the time and this is specifically something I like to check about myself - can I still be myself with people who I am not naturally drawn to.
I got sidetracked from my OP, to which I should really add Hork's words,
.
My only intent was to draw attention to the way we seem to be telling one another how bad our plays have been. I can say that you 'erred in your decision making', or I can call you a moron who doesn't know how to play poker and can't type. Both have the same 'constructive' part, but they also have different effects on the conversation and the tone of the forum.
I can't believe you're telling me that as a voluntary member of the forum I (or anyone else) must tolerate abuse while waiting for constructive criticsm. That seems a little much for any of us to swallow. In this case, Scotty had his fill of the crap people were feeding him. That was my motivation and my concern. Please read BBC's comment and honestly let me know if I reacted inappropriately to the tone as well as the content.
In any case, I have said my piece and am off to the sunshine state for some sun and R+R. I may post a trip report, although I sense it will be mostly slurred typing.
Cheers all!
I certainly didn't want to hurt scottyz's feelings. So if i did at all im sorry. If i didnt nevermind.
Personally, I was glad scotty banned me, and think he has done an awesome job here. I said as much in an email to sloth after that all happened. And I summed it up in the 'my banning' thread.Â
Anything i said after was in jest, and not serious. I thought it was all too funny, and was trying to have some fun with the facts. The truth is I couldnt care less about being banned.Â
  On some of the other forums i participate in bannings are almost comical in most cases (for real members), and I was just messing around. And about being harsh about some HH's and the whole flintbones nonsense, I was also just messing around. I had just spent a few weeks reading neverwins board (pure degeneration) and I was just being trying to inject some fire for a week around here. Well it didnt go to well did it? Â
My neighbour's dog is an annoying barker too. Could I borrow your truck for a while?
This is off topic...but you did a terrific job Scotty, I think one could easily get wrapped up in trying to figure out the 'tone' of many posts that may seem offensive or borderline to some but not others...I don't think that's a moderators job. I think he needs to be unbiased and simply treat everyone the same using the same set of rules. Regardless of the intended tone if something crosses the line it should be dealt with. I was banned for an inappropriate post, my intent was not to offend but to try and be funny however Scotty was 100% correct in his decision, regardless of what I intended or my perception of the post the content of my post was completely out of line (and may I add the post was not a reflection of how I personally feel or view the world, it was more a paraphrase of a rant I heard on the radio that I considered funny..and forget it you're not seeing the OP). Anyways I applaud Scotty for his decision and his hard work, it prompted me to step back and realize my mistake. I have not made that mistake again and is that not the ultimate goal to learn from your mistakes? I can be hot-headed and passionate about things and I believe that is within the boundries of this forum but I think as long as people don't make things personal, vulgar, or racial then some 'heated' debate is completely healthy.