Deep in tourney with AKo

wader

This is a $10 rebuy 908 entrys down to 84

I think this is pretty standard play here, but Im wondering if anybody has any different ideas. I am pondering limping with this hand when im this deep in tourney and have average chips???? I know it might not be the correct play but I really don't want to bust on a race quite yet. If I limp and a small stack pushes I can call, If I limp and a big stack raises I can call and see a flop and have a well hidden hand that I can get away from. What I hate is commiting myself with A high. Any suggestions???????????

PokerStars Game #4143196214: Tournament #20356645, Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (2000/4000) - 2006/03/01 - 20:21:30 (ET)
Table '20356645 68' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: ZaPokaSta (197825 in chips)
Seat 2: SNM1018 (48896 in chips)
Seat 3: GregZap (42510 in chips)
Seat 4: wader (67329 in chips)
Seat 5: Shades85 (39684 in chips)
Seat 6: shiko123 (17395 in chips)
Seat 7: sms8711 (125075 in chips)
Seat 8: melonhead (70376 in chips)
ZaPokaSta: posts the ante 200
SNM1018: posts the ante 200
GregZap: posts the ante 200
wader: posts the ante 200
Shades85: posts the ante 200
shiko123: posts the ante 200
sms8711: posts the ante 200
melonhead: posts the ante 200
melonhead: posts small blind 2000
ZaPokaSta: posts big blind 4000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to wader [Kd As]
SNM1018: folds
GregZap: folds
wader: raises 12000 to 16000
Shades85: folds
shiko123: folds
sms8711: raises 20000 to 36000
melonhead: folds
ZaPokaSta: folds
wader: raises 31129 to 67129 and is all-in
sms8711: calls 31129
*** FLOP *** [Jd 6d 8d]
*** TURN *** [Jd 6d 8d] [6c]
SNM1018 said, "uh oh"
*** RIVER *** [Jd 6d 8d 6c] [4c]
wader said, "gg"
ZaPokaSta said, "nh"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
wader: shows [Kd As] (a pair of Sixes)
sms8711: shows [Js Jc] (a full house, Jacks full of Sixes)
SNM1018 said, "gg"
sms8711 collected 141858 from pot
sms8711 said, "gg"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 141858 | Rake 0
Board [Jd 6d 8d 6c 4c]
Seat 1: ZaPokaSta (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: SNM1018 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: GregZap folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: wader showed [Kd As] and lost with a pair of Sixes
Seat 5: Shades85 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: shiko123 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: sms8711 (button) showed [Js Jc] and won (141858) with a full house, Jacks full of Sixes
Seat 8: melonhead (small blind) folded before Flop

Wader

beanie42

wader wrote:

I think this is pretty standard play here, but Im wondering if anybody has any different ideas. I am pondering limping with this hand when im this deep in tourney and have average chips???? I know it might not be the correct play but I really don't want to bust on a race quite yet. If I limp and a small stack pushes I can call, If I limp and a big stack raises I can call and see a flop and have a well hidden hand that I can get away from. What I hate is committing myself with A high. Any suggestions???????????

I've actually started limping AK about 10-15% of the time, although not just deep in the tournament (even first level). My main reason is to disguise the hand (as you mention) in case I hit the flop, and just to generally mix things up a bit. I'd be cautious about the motivation (doing it only because it's late in tourney) so you don't tighten up too much, but I don't think limping would be incorrect when used sparingly.

I'm curious why you re-raised pre-flop. His initial re-raise has more than half his stack committed, so you no longer have any fold equity by pushing now. You'd be a bit short if you called and folded on the flop, but you'd still have a chance. Just wondering what the thought process was here?

SirWatts

Meh just make your normal raise. You can fold to a big reraise if the player is really tight, otherwise you need to work on your flipping skills.

Hork42

I'd be more likely to limp with AK for deceptive value earlier in the tournament when the chips are deep. Not saying I'd do it often, but I think the need to disguise the hand decreases greatly the farther along you are in the tournament as more people get into small stack trouble...

T_Mac

hand pretty much played itself, gotta win races to win tournies

Lukey

I wouldn't limp AK with your stack size at this stage unless im trapping and my plan if to push over top any raise(big or small stack).  I'm happy just taking the blinds & antes with a standard raise increasing your stack by 10%.  If someone comes over the top...its push or fold.  Calling here is horrible.  I would consider folding if I had 20bb+ or had him pegged as tight but with 67k...you played it perfect.   

wader

beanie42 wrote:

I'm curious why you re-raised pre-flop.  His initial re-raise has more than half his stack committed, so you no longer have any fold equity by pushing now.  You'd be a bit short if you called and folded on the flop, but you'd still have a chance.  Just wondering what the thought process was here?

Yeah the re-raise was a bad play.....I know hes calling. I think the proper play would have been the stop and go here if I decide to play.....or possibly call and fold with no improvement (dont like this one).

Lukey

wader wrote:

beanie42 wrote:

I'm curious why you re-raised pre-flop.  His initial re-raise has more than half his stack committed, so you no longer have any fold equity by pushing now.  You'd be a bit short if you called and folded on the flop, but you'd still have a chance.  Just wondering what the thought process was here?

Yeah the re-raise was a bad play.....I know hes calling. I think the proper play would have been the stop and go here if I decide to play.....or possibly call and fold with no improvement (dont like this one).

Calling the raise is the worst thing you can do.  If you call and bet any flop you almost always get called by hands that beat you and fold hands that you had dominated preflop.  Calling and folding is weak.  Lets pretend you were lucky enough to pick up AK again after folding and leaving yourself 7BB…you obviously go all in.  So why not do it now and give yourself a shot at winning. 

wader

Lukey wrote:

Calling the raise is the worst thing you can do.  If you call and bet any flop you almost always get called by hands that beat you and fold hands that you had dominated preflop.  Calling and folding is weak.  Lets pretend you were lucky enough to pick up AK again after folding and leaving yourself 7BB…you obviously go all in.  So why not do it now and give yourself a shot at winning. 

I lost the race here and thats probabbly why I'm posting this question, if I had won it I wouldn't be posting it. I usually think about how I could have played a hand different if I lose it.
Hes not going to re-raise me here with AQ, so me having him dominated is out of the question. I know he has a decent PP or AK (probabbly not though). If hes holding 1010 or a lower PP, 50% of the time overcards will come, if I play the stop and go I have some fold equity and if he calls I probabbly still have 6 live outs. I have an average stack at this time and I hate putting it all on the line with A high, I know that it is a strong holding and you want to see all 5 cards. But in this case I know he has a PP (80%) and he is going to call If I push preflop (no fold equity.....which is also why AK is a power house). This is why Im wondering if there is a better way of playing this hand.
I guess the question should have been:
After I raised preflop and then get reraised is there other ways of playing the hand besides pushing.....when you know your opponents is going to call. If our positions where reversed and he raised preflop then my options are easier.

Wader

Lukey

I think your post is vallid as it is a difficult spot to be. Below is a similar post and Greg Raymer explaining the stop-n-go. After thinking about it some more I think AK is too strong of a hand to perform the stop-n-go unless I thought villan over plays lower pp or it's early and there is still loose play.

NL tourney hand
#184212 - 12/09/02 07:24 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply

Pokerstars NL Hold'em tourney, 200$+15$, 201 entrants, 27 payed. 1st place 1s 11,055$.

40mins into the tourney, Level III,
Blinds at 25$/50$, 154plrs left.

Stack size:
Seat 1: (290 in chips)
Seat 2: (4475 in chips)
Seat 3: (1515 in chips) Me
Seat 4: (2205 in chips)
Seat 5: (4205 in chips) Button
Seat 6: (375 in chips) SB
Seat 7: (2200 in chips) BB
Seat 8: (1605 in chips)
Seat 9: (1375 in chips)


Folded to mee. I have AKo on the CO and make a standard 5x the BB raise to 250$, Buton re-raised 450$ more to 700$.

Now what?? He has me covered and as position on me. All I know about him is he won a couple pots pre-flop and on the flop by being agressive whit position.

If I fold, I'm left me whit 1,255$ whit blind raising to 50$/100$ soon. Not a hopeless position.

Calling here leaves me whit 815$ to see the flop on a 1,475$ pot whit the blinds, trying to hit an Ace or King. I might call if i had more money to play whit and had position.

Moving-in seem the best option since I get to see 5 cards. And it "annouces" AA, KK or AK. So I now put the pressure on my opponent. If he have a big ace, I'm way ahead. Any PP is a 50/50 shot and he can't be sure I don't have Aces or Kings.

I moved-in, he called whit 88 and I missed. Got busted in 154th.


Was my conclusion correct? I found is calling whit 88 pretty weak but he got away whit it i'm out. Was it too early in the tourney to make such moves considering loose plrs are still in? A friend of mine insist I should have just called but I argued folding was better move then calling in that spot.

What would you have done and why???
thx.

Happy


Post Extras:

Greg (FossilMan)
Pooh-Bah

Because of your chip count, you are in a tough spot. Given the positions, he can put you on a steal, so AK is too good of a hand to fold here, IMO. I think there are two viable plays, the one you made, and the stop-and-go.

The stop-and-go is to call now, and then bet the flop, even when you miss. This greatly increases your chances of beating a hand just like 88. When the flop comes J52, and you bet all-in, he'll have a tough call to make, as hitting that J or Q or whatever will often look very believable. If you are against AA or KK, you will get called and most likely lose, but that's no worse than getting it all in preflop. If he was playing a weak-mediocre A, and if he would've folded it preflop, then this play is bad if he hits that kicker and calls you postflop. However, in this case, given the size of your all-in compared to the pot, he is potstuck, really, and will probably always call.

The real loss in this play is when he folds a hand like AQ postflop, a hand which you're beating badly enough that you want him to call (the chips you win at risk are worth more than the certain chips if he folds). However, again given the size of your raise, while you want him to call with AQ postflop, you didn't want him to call preflop, and you can't have it both ways (very often).

One thing I would do is raise less preflop. Here you raised 1/6th of your stack. That is an awkward amount. If you had made it T150 preflop, and then got raised to T450 or so, you could've made a substantial reraise and he maybe folds preflop. Also, when you're stealing in the future, it works better if you can do it for less, and if you raise less with your good hands, this will disguise your steals.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Post Extras:

happyjaypee
addict


Reged: 09/07/02
Posts: 517
Loc: Quebec, Canada Thx Greg [Re: Greg (FossilMan)]
#184267 - 12/09/02 10:53 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Thx Greg, very enlightening reply.

For the records, Here's the board:

*** FLOP *** [9c 5c 5h]
*** TURN *** [9c 5c 5h] [Qd]
*** RIVER *** [9c 5c 5h Qd] [Jh]

He would probably have called a "stop-and-go" move on that flop but I understand the superiority of that play over pushing all-in right away. I'll had that weapon to my arsenal.

Thx again!


-Happy

Post Extras:

Greg (FossilMan)
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/04/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Stonington CT Re: Thx Greg [Re: happyjaypee]
#184296 - 12/09/02 12:47 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Since I wasn't there and all, I'm not saying that the stop-and-go was the better play this time. It might have been.

Remember that this play doesn't work if you're not first to act postflop. It also tends to work best when YOU have the small/medium pair, and suspect you're up against AK. One important thing to remember is do NOT change your mind. If you held 88, and the flop was AKQ, it is NOT the time to give up the play. This is when your 88 beat TT, because when you bet out, he'll give you credit for at least one of those cards, and he won't have anywhere near the odds to catch his 4-6 outs.

Three main things for the stop-and-go (at the least the all-in version). First, your hand is too good to fold preflop for the conditions. Second, if you reraise preflop it won't be enough to make them fold. Third, if you bet the flop it will be enough to make them fold if they miss.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)