Did I push too fast here?

Big E

If you don't like a bad beat story move on, this is a bad beat and it left me pissed off for some time. I was sitting 8th out of 25 left in the Team Canuck tourney this past weekend (top 20 pay). In the past I have been too timid trying to avoid any big battles and quietly make it into the money, that does not work.....well I guess it can work but that is not how I want to be thinking anymore, I want to win and I'm trying to be more aggressive when the situation warrants it. I've been so close to the money in the last few but end up running into a killer hand when I think I'm primed to double up and close in on the chip lead and in a blink of an eye I am out. After making a couple good moves and rebuilding my stack to a point where I am sitting 8th I was feeling good and thought I was playing well....then this hand comes around and it left me feeling empty and upset and I question my push here. I never saw this coming, I thought my opponent was on over cards and I pushed hoping he had hit his Ace and would call, looking back I think that was stupid perhaps I should have slowed down and just checked/called down to the river after my post flop bet was called? However with me raising and then betting out had I slowed I think he would have went all-in and I would have called anyways. Any thoughts on how you play a hand like this late in a tourney so close to the money?
I am very happy with my SNG success and the frequency that I money there, it has been very profitable but I just can;t seem to burst that bubble in the MTT's and honestly I think it's easier emotionally to go out early then go out so close to the money so often?

Game #1312511745 - Tournament Team Canuck - 300/600 No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2006/02/26-00:07:22.7 (CST) Table "Team Canuck 2" (MTT) -- Seat 10 is the button Seat 1: svenghali12 (12,489 in chips) Seat 2: newfie1984 (15,937 in chips) Seat 3: adept_player (4,770 in chips) Seat 4: bigweez21
(55,198 in chips) Seat 5: loganberry (3,284 in chips) Seat 7: Wylde J
(20,674 in chips) Seat 8: Vikingcruise (3,675 in chips) Seat 9:
kenilworth (18,747 in chips) Seat 10: Big_E_67 (14,465 in chips)
newfie1984: Ante (50)
adept_player: Ante (50)
bigweez21: Ante (50)
loganberry: Ante (50)
Wylde J : Ante (50)
Vikingcruise: Ante (50)
kenilworth: Ante (50)
Big_E_67: Ante (50)
svenghali12: Ante (50)
svenghali12: Post Small Blind (300)
newfie1984: Post Big Blind (600)
Dealing...
Dealt to Big_E_67 [ 7h ]
Dealt to Big_E_67 [ 7s ]
adept_player: Fold
bigweez21: Fold
loganberry: Fold
Wylde J : Fold
Vikingcruise: Fold
kenilworth: Fold
Big_E_67: Raise (1,200)
svenghali12: Fold
newfie1984: Call (600)
*** FLOP *** : [ 3h 8s 7c ]
newfie1984: Check
Big_E_67: Bet (1,200)
newfie1984: Call (1,200)
*** TURN *** : [ 3h 8s 7c ] [ Ac ]
newfie1984: Check
Big_E_67: Bet (12,015)
newfie1984: Call (12,015)
bigweez21 said, "wow"
*** RIVER *** : [ 3h 8s 7c Ac ] [ 9d ]
Big_E_67 said, "ouch"
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 29,580 | Board: [ 3h 8s 7c Ac 9d ]
svenghali12 lost 350 (folded)
newfie1984 bet 14,465, collected 29,580, net +15,115 (showed hand) [ 8c 8d ] (three of a kind, eights) adept_player lost 50 (folded)
bigweez21 lost 50 (folded)
loganberry lost 50 (folded)
Wylde J lost 50 (folded)
Vikingcruise lost 50 (folded)
kenilworth lost 50 (folded)
Big_E_67 lost 14,465 (showed hand) [ 7h 7s ] (three of a kind, sevens)

beanie42

I don't like the actual betting, but it's somewhat irrelevant in this hand. You aren't pushing him out at any point, and after the flop, you are both guaranteed to get all-in. The way the hand played out, nothing you can do. If you got away from this one, I'd be disappointed. Tough result.

Hork42

I don't think I'd call this a bad beat. You did have the lesser hand. Set over set hurts though. Good thing it doesn't happen too often. I wouldn't have let this one go... No other obvious draws available.

beanie42

Big E wrote:

Any thoughts on how you play a hand like this late in a tourney so close to the money?

This just rang in my head, especially in conjunction with Dave's "coin-flip" thread. Would you play this hand any different in the first blind level?

Big E

beanie42 wrote:

I don't like the actual betting, but it's somewhat irrelevant in this hand. 

Can you expand on this Trevor? I did think perhaps I didn't bet enough pre-flop (still trying to get out of my tight-weak shell?) but I think he's calling any bet?

beanie42 wrote:

This just rang in my head, especially in conjunction with Dave's "coin-flip" thread. Would you play this hand any different in the first blind level?

First blind level I try and limp, limping with this flop I'd likely slow play coming over the top big on the turn or river, can't see a different result as the 88 is not going away?

Big E

Hork42 wrote:

I don't think I'd call this a bad beat.  You did have the lesser hand.   

true, not a bad beat just a bad play? How would others have played this not knowing the outcome?

Flint Bones

I would have probably lost all my chips. Set over set is uncommon and hard to see coming. It just sucks to lose like this.

westside8

Big E, there is essentially nothing you can do about this hand. Your raise could've easily been seen as a button steal, depending on the player, I wouldn't be surprised he if reraised you with 88, but he wasn't going to be folding that in the BB. The actual betting sequence, as beanie said, is essentially irrelevant. You started with the worse hand, and it just so happens you improve but he also improved, and if I was in your shoes, I'll be probably be going broke as well. This is a rare situation where both players flop a set, it just that it happens at the wrong time. He could've been calling with Ax and hit his x on the flop and then his A on the turn and you would've been ahead. Its a tough loss, but I would've got broke too.

DrTyore

Whenever I flop a set, unless there's a big hand out there like a flush or a straight, I'm more than willing to put all my chips in.

It sucks, but take some solace in something Harrington said once (paraphrased)

Whenever I hear someone say they folded a set because they "knew" their opponent had an over-set, I only think of one word.... idiot!

Mark

SirWatts

Set over set = broke.

Big E

DrTyore wrote:

It sucks, but take some solace in something Harrington said once (paraphrased)

  Whenever I hear someone say they folded a set because they "knew" their opponent had an over-set, I only think of one word.... idiot!

Mark

I do remember reading that, lol! I guess I was wondering if I could have changed gears and not lost my entire stack...but I think that is the wrong way to look at it...if this situation pops up again and I play 'scared' I will not maximize my winnings. Thanks everyone.

beanie42

Big E wrote:

beanie42 wrote:

I don't like the actual betting, but it's somewhat irrelevant in this hand. 

Can you expand on this Trevor? I did think perhaps I didn't bet enough pre-flop (still trying to get out of my tight-weak shell?) but I think he's calling any bet?

Pre-flop, your hand isn't great unless it improves, so either get in cheap or try to win it now (either limp or raise to about 2000 - 3xBB).  Your hand isn't strong, but strong enough against the blinds, but the min-raise on the button screams weakness (to me, at least).

On the flop, the pot was at 3150, so I'd bet about 1500 - 1800 (around 1/2 the pot). 

On the turn, I'd probably bet the pot.  I don't like the all-in here, because if they don't have an A strong enough to call, they probably fold.  It could look like a steal, but if you've been at this table for a bit, they probably don't read you as the all-in bluffing type .  Basically, I can't see this bet winning you much money (the traditional "only called if you're beaten").  If he had A6 (dumb, but I've seen it too many times), he may call another smallish bet, but he probably wouldn't call your all-in.

But again, that's just my thinking (I'm sure others would have there own opinions on this), and it wouldn't change the outcome anyway. 

Big E wrote:

First blind level I try and limp, limping with this flop I'd likely slow play coming over the top big on the turn or river, can't see a different result as the 88 is not going away?

Notice that you changed your play due to the "closeness to the money".  The min-raise instead of the limp, you lead out the betting on the flop instead of checking, and instead of letting him bluff (it wouldn't be a bluff, but you see what I mean) and coming over the top on turn/river, you went all-in without him raising first. (personally, I don't like slow-playing trips any more, but I can understand that strategy)

I was curious about this simply because I think we sometimes deviate from our best game and get "too tricky", etc. when we get close to the bubble (I'm guilty of this).  In my opinion, I think your "first blind" play was more correct than what you actually did.

BBC Z

If the only time I ever busted out was set-over-set, I'd be a bazillionaire.

specialK

SirWatts wrote:

Set over set = broke.

well put

Hobbes

I'd have probably seen his check on the turn as either he hit his Ace or he had 2 pair.

Most would be broke here.....Kind of like pushing all in with Kings and getting called by Aces.
It happens and it sucks.


Hobbes

specialK

Hobbes wrote:

Most would be broke here.....Kind of like pushing all in with Kings and getting called by Aces.
It happens and it sucks.

unless you are sammy farha on high stakes poker and spike your king to win a pot of almost $400,000.

wader

Yeah you go broke with this hand. But I wanted to add, why the min. raise? You have the button you have a hand, I would be raising at least 3xbb here.

Wader

Big E

wader wrote:

Yeah you go broke with this hand. But I wanted to add, why the min. raise? You have the button you have a hand, I would be raising at least 3xbb here.

Wader

Honestly I have no idea...the table had tightened up and min raises were winning some pots uncontested and I had gotten some hands recently and raised them all 3xbb, that said my first instinct was to either call or raise 4-5xbb to change things up instead I just clicked 'raise' to make the min raise. Brain fart? Nope, I think subconsciously I was playing scared. In the last Canuck tourney I was sitting close to the money and ran into trouble so I think that played in my mind.

Trevor, thanks for the reply I like your line of better way more then mine.

Dave Scharf

Sorry... finally catching up.

Set over set = probably go broke.


One of the things that I always try and do in no-limit is leave myself and escape route. That doesn't mean I take it, but it means that I try and give myself the opportunity. So, I will walk through the hand...

Game #1312511745 - Tournament Team Canuck

Cool. Thanks for playing.

300/600 No Limit Texas Hold'em -
Seat 10: Big_E_67 (14,465 in chips)

Our hero is the button with lots of chips.

Dealt to Big_E_67 [ 7h ]
Dealt to Big_E_67 [ 7s ]
Big_E_67: Raise (1,200)
svenghali12: Fold
newfie1984: Call (600)

There have been a few in this thread that have questioned your min raise here. You certainly could have raised more, but I think this is just fine.

In fact, I have started using the min raise A LOT in no-limit and I really like the results. This will be the subject of this weekend's poker log, I think. I will deploying the min raise a lot at the end of this month in the CPT event at Casino Regina.

*** FLOP *** : [ 3h 8s 7c ]
newfie1984: Check
Big_E_67: Bet (1,200)
newfie1984: Call (1,200)

Woohoo! Who's your daddy! Hard to imagine a better flop. At this point my only thought is "how will I get ALL of his chips?"

*** TURN *** : [ 3h 8s 7c ] [ Ac ]
newfie1984: Check
Big_E_67: Bet (12,015)
newfie1984: Call (12,015)

Ugh. I hate your push here. The pot is about $4500. I am not saying that I will not lose all my chips with your hand. I am sure that I do, but I am not fond of pushing all-in. What is accomplished? You WANT him to call. What will he call with? AK, A-x for two pair, or a set. Moving in is asking him to fold.

I prefer a bet around $3000. This respresents that you have an ace and have hit top pair. Then, if he raises you can at least have a chance of getting away (I would not succeed).

Interestingly, the ace is a TERRIBLE card on the turn. It will lead me to believe that my opponent has an ace which, of course, I would be thrilled with.

newfie1984 bet 14,465, collected 29,580, net +15,115 (showed hand) [ 8c 8d ] (three Big_E_67 lost 14,465 (showed hand) [ 7h 7s ] (three of a kind, sevens)

I never get away from this hand. I can, very rarely, fold a set but this is not such a hand.

Big E

Ugh. I hate your push here. The pot is about $4500. I  am not saying that I will not lose all my chips with your hand. I am sure that I do, but I am not fond of pushing all-in. What is accomplished? You WANT him to call. What will he call with? AK, A-x for two pair, or a set. Moving in is asking him to fold.

I prefer a bet around $3000. This respresents that you have an ace and have hit top pair. Then, if he raises you can at least have a chance of getting away (I would not succeed).

Interestingly, the ace is a TERRIBLE card on the turn. It will lead me to believe that my opponent has an ace which, of course, I would be thrilled with.

Thank you very much for your reply Dave. I completely agree with you here. I also agree my min raise pre-flop could be in question, however I do not think that was my mistake, the table had been tight and had been foldiing to a min raise, had the blinds been weak they would have folded....88 was not folding IMHO to a raise of  even 3-4xBB...my thinking was that if the table had been folding to min raises I could take the pot then and there and if I do get a call I am seeing a cheap flop. However I think my all-in was my undoing....as soon as I pushed I thought..why? You make perfect sense Dave...I want all his chips but by going all in I will only accomplish only two results...he folds and I win a smaller pot then I should have or he calls with a better hand and I am out neither of which I want (I guess there is  small chance he could be playing A-x and call the all-in but I think there is too small a chance of this). My thought process was that if he is sitting on A-x my push on the A might induce a call, it was a very "rookie" mistake. Thank you for you comments, I will definitely learn from this experience!

OnTilt98

There's not much you can do wrong with anyway you bet this hand. Neither player is going to fold and unfortunatley you have to add this to your list of bad timing.