please help settle a feud

TinMan

$50 NL table on DestinyPoker.com


I get  :kd :ad UTG and make it $3.50 I have $50 before the hand starts

fold around to MP who calls, everyone else folds. MP had $26.50 going into the hand.

flop is:

:qc :jd :5s

MP checks, I check. turn is  :2d

MP bets $9.50, I call.

river is  :7d

he goes allin for $13.45 and I call. He then goes off the hook about how weak I am and how much of a fish I am. He may be (hopefully registering soon)


your thoughts on the hand?


*edit* forgot to mention that he ended up having :as :qs

zero

You have about 15 outs, I'm counting 9 daimonds, 3 tens and 6 overcards worth about 1/2 an out each. The pot is about $17 on the turn. 15 outs gives you 3:1 odds, and its costing you $9.50 to win 17, giving you pot odds of 2:1. Throw in some implied odds and I think its a call, but a very close one.

Graham

an example of why not to slow play. Bad check on the flop by AQ 'cause it gave you a draw to the nuggets. IMO, I think you played it right TM.

JohnnieH

He should have gone ALL IN on the flop or even the turn. He played TPTK way too slow.

IMO, you were right and he was wrong.

Nice Hand.

JohnnieH

TinMan

not sure it matters now, he bust out off the table. He went right off the handle about how big a fish I was and blah blah blah. So rather than try and settle it there I told him I'd post here for feedback. He may still be viewing the thread but he's no longer at my table.

thanks for the replies so far.

TinMan

JohnnieH wrote:

He should have gone ALL IN on the flop or even the turn.  He played TPTK way too slow.

IMO, you were right and he was wrong.

Nice Hand.

JohnnieH

that's nearly exactly what I said and he cried back about "notice how fish always try to justify their suckout" 'shegeeves' if you're still lurking, would love to hear from you!

mike27river

Welcome to the world of poker
people get sucked out on all the time
I was playing omaha the other day and i had :ad king :d:king :9 :
Went all in after the flop and some one called me with queen queen and the nhits queen queen on the turn and river.
Tell this person to play with some restraint, you get beat sometimes asnd you have to learn to live with it!
River Mike

beanie42

It's a close call, but I think the implied odds tip the hand in favor of calling.

TinMan wrote:

that's nearly exactly what I said and he cried back about "notice how fish always try to justify their suckout"

LOL - as many other posts say, don't educate the fish. However, I've taken this a step further and I stop defending myself as well. My response is something like "Your right, I shouldn't have called with my low trips - I'm a bad player.  I'm lucky you didn't flop trips too" . What do I care if I look like a donk to the table (which was chosen due to bad play anyway)?  Maybe they'll send more money my way.  Focus on your own play, and making sure you're making the correct decisions.  If they tell you it was dumb, just nod and agree, and cackle like a villain on the inside!

AcidJoe

It's funny how when someone slow plays and gets burned your the fish. I hear that all the time especially playing heads up. I was playing an extremely aggressive playing HU when I hit AK clubs. This guy would bet and cap (it was limit) any draw any pair any overcards. After hitting the J (he had AJ) with a J 9 2 flop with 2 hearts on board I bet he raised I call. I then check called to the river where I hit the K. He cried for about 12 minutes about me being a fish and chasing to the river. He'll get over it and given his pattern of betting he could have just as easily been on the flush draw or straight draw. After I won he commented on how he felt sorry for me and he had won so much that day losing to me didn't matter.

The point. Play your game if you suck out you suck out. If he sucks out he sucks out. I think hitting top pair top kicker and checking was a serious mistake on his part. I would have fired out $10 right there, hopefully taken down the pot, if not certainly all in on the turn I would have fired all in. Top pair top kicker is such a weak hand. If you hit middle pair then the turn brings you 2 pair he would have been gone too. WHY? Simply because his trap backfired. Trap with the nuts not a hand that is vunerable to getting busted way tooo easy.

Believe me, the top pros aren't playing 25, 50, 100 no limit so I don't really care what people say. I usually have chat muted anyways since most of it is someone whining about how their KK always runs into AA or some such nonsense.

Flint Bones

Ignore people who go on and on about others being fish.

They are either sore losers or just losers or just sores.

STR82ACE

IT'S PART OF THE GAME!!! LIVE WITH IT!!!

ScottyZ

First of all, either the pre-flop post-flop action is described incorrectly, with the UTG player acting after the MP player on every post-flop street. Hand histories are a wonderful thing. I'll assume the pre-flop action is the correct one. It doesn't make an enourmous difference in terms of calling, but it does make an enourmous difference in analysing the alternative plays of betting/raising as compared to calling.

Checking the flop is okay. Betting a more raggedy flop might be okay too, but with a flop of QJx, I'd be more inclined to go for a cheap (or free) turn card. Bless my opponent's heart for checking it back.

I would have bet right out on the turn, probably something like $5 or $6. This leads to an easier call (in the sense of pot/implied odds) if raised on the turn, and allows the additional chance of possibly picking up the pot immediately with either the worst hand, or if I happen to have the best hand (which I do not want to be making a big call with if unimproved on the river).

I'll assume the actual action is that you checked, and your opponent bet the $9.50.

On the turn you are calling $9.50 (let's round it to $10) to win a maximum of about $7 + $23 = $30. So, you're getting maximum implied odds of around 3 to 1. Immediate pot odds are about 1.7 to 1.

Assuming your hand is currently no good, you have anywhere between 10 and 18 outs. You are guaranteed to have 10 nut outs, and will have the full 12 nut outs fairly often. You have at least 15 outs reasonably often, that is, the times your opponent does not already have 2 pair or better.

Odds against making a 12-out draw on the river are 3 to 1. If you have 15 outs, your drawiing odds are about 2 to 1. With the maximum outs of 18, your draw gets there with odds of about 1.5 to 1.

On the off chance that you actually have the best hand, you are of course much better than 1 to 1 against to win the pot. The problem with this case is the question of whether or not you can call a river bet (including whether or not your opponent actually bets) if you go unimproved.

The (max) implied odds seem to suggest a call, but it's close.

However, your one-pair outs make the situation a little tricky. For example, assuming your opponent will bet the river every time when an Ace or King falls, you are really getting effective odds of $30 to $23 (just over 1-1) to make your 15-out draw which is insufficient.

Also, the closer your opponent is to making perfect1 play on the river, the worse shape you are in. With perfect play from your opponent, your draw is only based on immediate pot odds. The pot itself, excluding river bets, only offers the right price in the 18 out case.

Does this opponent make perfect play on the river? Certainly, the post-hand analysis says that he does not. He bets right into one of the river scare cards. (Though this is obviously not perfect play from your opponent, it is not necessarily incorrect play.)

Note also, that you will probably not be able to play FTOP-perfectly on the river. For example, perfect play on this river would be to fold if an Ace comes and call if a King comes. I might believe a player who said they would either fold in both cases or call in both cases, but not selectively choose between the two overcards.

So, if you knew for certain (or were just nearly certain) that your opponent will pay you off every time when you hit one of your 10 nut outs, you'd be getting 3 to 1 implied odds for a 3.6 to 1 draw. Not good enough on the surface. Assuming 12 clean outs, it's very close.

So, what about those overcards? :cool:

If your opponent has exactly AQ or KQ, the implied money odds of your overcard outs probably come close to cancelling out. You pay off the opponent and vice versa 50% of the time that the overcard hits.

If your overcards are good 100% of the time, you have an easy call based on immediate pot odds alone regardless of how well your opponent plays.

If your opponent is capable of folding on some river scare cards, your implied odds are cut down significantly. However, if you play well enough to know that your opponent will fold on a river card like Tc, you may be able to swipe the pot if something like the 9c or 8c falls too.

Well, if nothing else, this post proves to me that you have a complicated decision on the turn. If your opponent can conclude that you have made a weak play on the turn in less than 1 minute, then kudos to him on being a world class NL cash game player, and I suggest that he moves up from $50 max NL. More likely, your opponent has made the following simple-minded analysis: "I was the favorite on the turn. My opponent called. My opponent drew out on me. My opponent plays badly. I will now berate him."

All in all, a close decision. However, I think I would make the call here, mainly based on the fact that there are going to be some cases where you do have the full 18 outs.

Check-raising all-in yourself on the turn is also a strong play worth considering. It depends on the opponent's expected river behavior (and your true position), but has the additional benefit of possibly moving your opponent off some of his marginal hands on the turn in a case where you would like to see the river anyway for the initial $9.50 bet.

ScottyZ

1In the sense of the FTOP, or, equivalently, Barry Greenstein's notion of "perfect play". That is, playing as if you know all the hole cards.

dunks

I think you played the hand well, that's how I would have played it anyway.

I've learned to not be too surprised when I get cracked when slowplaying, especially slowplaying top pair.

alekat47

just agree with him and keep him on tilt, makes it easier to take the rest of his money.

u made the right call

meltedmark

It strkes me funny, but he was trying to slow play, and just got burnt. he was probably tired. Yah that s it he was just tired; lol

"last time i checked it was called gambling."