Did I play this right?
At a $4-8 game I get Pocket Kings and in MP I raise. A guy in LP re-raises and I re-raise again he just calls. (Everyone else folded so we were heads up)
So flop comes out AAK with a spade draw. Checked to me and I raise, the guy in LP re-raises. I already have the lower full house so I re-raise and he re-raises me again. I figure because he didn't re-raise me preflop, he doesn't have Pocket A. He might of had AK but I know forsure he had an Ace. So I re-raise to try to get him out from drawing his full house and he re-raises me AGAIN!
Now, what would you do, would you keep re-raising to get a nice big win or just call all the way down to the river just incase he has AK or even worse AA.
What would you do to get the most money from this pot?
So flop comes out AAK with a spade draw. Checked to me and I raise, the guy in LP re-raises. I already have the lower full house so I re-raise and he re-raises me again. I figure because he didn't re-raise me preflop, he doesn't have Pocket A. He might of had AK but I know forsure he had an Ace. So I re-raise to try to get him out from drawing his full house and he re-raises me AGAIN!
Now, what would you do, would you keep re-raising to get a nice big win or just call all the way down to the river just incase he has AK or even worse AA.
What would you do to get the most money from this pot?
Comments
No doubt he has an ace. You could probably not put him on AA since he called your re-raise pre-flop and didn't cap it. You could possibly put him on AK, or maybe anything down to AJ suited. But I don't know the type of player, and how he's/she's been playing, so who knows.
AK is just as bad as AA for you here. Either way you would be drawing dead.
I would probably go into check/call mode with that much aggression. Again, depends on the player.
made an EDIT,
I check call..
Hold on now. How many bets is the cap at the place you were playing? 4 bets or 5 bets? Also, is the betting cap removed when it's heads-up, and if so, exactly *when* does is the cap removed? Immediately, or at the start of the next betting round? When the 4th bet went in, did the dealer announce that the betting was capped or not? (If so, was he/she correct in doing so?)
The difficulty with the opponent just calling the 4th bet is that he/she may simply *think* the betting is capped, no matter what the actual rules are. On the other hand, a player who is smart enough (and paying attention enough) to know that the betting was not capped here, may very well also be smart enough to smooth call the 4th bet with AA after it got heads-up to trap you and/or disguise his/her hand.
It's not at all clear to me that you can rule out AA here. Even forgetting about all of the betting cap business, there is no reason to think that a player at $4-$8 will always make (what we think is) the optimal play. There are dozens of reasons someone might dream up to just call the 4th pre-flop bet with AA. One of two of those reasons might even be good reasons.
As for the hand itself, after the opponent raises the flop, I would simply call here, and go into check and call mode against most players. Re-raising the flop isn't going to be anything more than value betting, and when my opponent raises the flop, I'm no longer convinced that I'm winning. Being up against AK is a real possibility, AA is not impossible. Also, showing weakness on the flop by just calling the raise on the flop may very well cause your opponent to bet again on the turn and river, whereas he would have otherwise probably went into a shell himself with just trips (or worse). Just calling the raise on the flop will probably save you money when you're losing, and make you money (by inducing bluffs, or by representing to your opponent that his Ace is good) if you're lucky enough to be winning.
After your opponent has already taken so much heat from you pre-flop and on the flop (and sent that heat right back at you), I think you betting out on the turn or river is pretty much out of the question.
ScottyZ
Yeah, that's what I said..
Mr. MP with KK raised preflop... to $8... got re-raised by Mr. LP to $12... and capped the betting himself at $16 and was called.
How is this checked to you?... your heads up and act first... I'll assume you bet out and get raised.
I believe he did re-raise you!
Look at it from his view: He re-raised preflop and got re-re-raised and called. He knows he's up against a monster hand... . You bet out on a flop of AAK and he raises you... gets re-raised back... and re-re-rasies you AGAIN. He's gotta have AA or AK right now and he'll have put you on KK. You need the case K just to beat AK and against AA you're screwed.
If he's any kind of tight player at all, get out now and save yourself $20.
If he's a loose player... (and if he doesn't have AA or AK, I'd put him in the maniac folder) call now and check/call the turn and river.
--Mike
How can he get a case K to beat AK?
Our hero has: KK
The board has: AAK
Our enemy has (in the example): AK
How can our hero win the hand? He cannot. He's dead vs AA or AK.
Brain-cramp!!
The pot should have min $38 in it Pre-flop. Suppose our hero bets out $4 on the flop (AAK) and accidently exposes his KK. Doesn't an opponent holding Ax have a +EV situation here?
--Mike
The odds of the Ax improving on the turn are 10.25 to 1, just about exactly equal to the offered pot odds of 10.5 to 1. A call based solely on pot-odds is correct here, but just barely so.
In fact, if this game is raked, the (typical) $2 rake will swing the call into being barely incorrect, the pot-odds becoming exactly 10 to 1.
A call may be slightly more correct than the pot-odds alone indicate, because the Ax hitting the 3 outs to the kicker might be well hidden and bring in more value than usual during the subsequent betting rounds.
ScottyZ
We seem to have an unusual affinity for the 5 King deck on this forum. 8)
http://pokerforum.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=751
ScottyZ
A call is actually a lot more than "slightly" correct. You have at least two BIG bets (3 if the Ax has position on the KK, since the KK has to bet the turn if checked to, even if it is exposed, otherwise it risks giving away a free 7-out draw) of implied odds (unless the KK has some chance of folding to a bet, in which case you have some bluffing chances). So factoring in the implied odds (assuming that the KK will never fold) you go from being offerred 10.5 to 1 to either 14.5 or 16.5 to 1, depending on position, which is far far more than the required 10.25 to 1.
Furthermore, if you miss, unless the case K hits, you go from a 4-outer to a 7-outer on the turn, which will be profitable AGAIN and thus has to be factored into the equation. (Picking up a +EV draw counts as winning EV)
Keith
You're right though, the EV of the call looks to be around +$4.50, which is slightly significant at a $4-$8 game.
ScottyZ
lol. Good one.
Keith
Even though it was stupid for me to keep re-raising creating a big $4-8 heads up pot, I just had a bit of a feeling that it was mine.
Oh wait a minute, I screwed that up and forgot to subtract the $12 in the cases where the Ax goes miss-miss. It should be less by about $9, for a total EV of -$4. That's a bit of a different result.
I'm not too sure about my calculation any more.
ScottyZ
There's no way. It has to be +EV. I am in the middle of an online tourney right now, but I'll do the math when I am done.
Keith
Assumptions:
- The KK has been exposed.
- KK acts first on all streets.
- $38 in the pot, limits are $4/$8, no rake
- Board is AAK
- KK will check/fold if another ace hits, or if a running pair comes. Otherwise he will bet out the turn (and call if raised) and check/call the river.
KK bets the flop. Pot = $42. Ax calls $4.
Case 1: Turn is the case A. (1 card out of 45) KK checks, Ax bets, KK folds. Profit = $42. EV = $42/45 = $0.93
Case 2: Ax hits his kicker on the turn. (3 cards out of 45) KK bets the turn. Ax raises. KK calls. Pot = $58 + $20.
Case 2.1: River K. (1 card out of 44) KK bets, Ax folds. Profit = -$20. EV = -$20/660 = -$0.03
Case 2.2: River A, or pairs Ax's kicker on board. (3 cards out of 44). KK checks, Ax bets, KK folds. Profit = $58. EV = $58/220 = $0.26
Case 2.3: River rag. (40 cards out of 44) KK checks, Ax bets, KK calls. Profit = $66. EV = $66/16.5 = $4
Case 3: Turn K. (1 card out of 45) KK bets, Ax folds. Profit = -$4. EV = -$4/45 = -$0.09.
Case 4: Turn rag (40 cards out of 45). KK bets, Ax calls. Pot = $50 + $10.
Case 4.1: River pairs the turn card, or is an A. (4 cards out of 44). KK checks, Ax bets, KK folds. Profit = $50. EV = $50/12.375 = $4.04
Case 4.2: River pairs Ax's kicker (3 cards out of 44). KK checks, Ax bets, KK calls. Profit = $58. EV = $58/16.5 = $3.51
Case 4.3: River rag, or K (37 cards out of 44). KK checks (or bets), Ax folds. Profit = -$12. EV = -$12/1.338 = -$8.97
TOTAL EV = $0.93 - $0.03 + $0.26 + $4 - $0.09 + $4.04 + $3.51 - $8.97 = $3.65, almost a full small bet... this is a VERY profitable call.
Keith
Nice!
This also is a great illustration of how devasating the rake is in a $4-$8 game, say $3 online, or $4 in Vegas. The rake turns this clear call into only about a break even play.
You *both* put about $175 into this pot???
ScottyZ
Are you subtracting the rake from the EV? The rake doesn't hurt you too much in this case because you don't win the pot all that often. You only win 16.8% of the time so even a harsh $4 rake only takes 67 cents off of your EV, so your call is still almost a +$3 EV call, which is huge.
Keith
I don't think that I could go this far without the nuts. The most bets I have ever gone without the nuts was 7 bets, and I was losing. There is no way I could ever get to 20+.
Over the weekend, I was playing $5/$10 at Brantford. I picked up KK. I raise and get some callers. Flop is K T 8. I bet and get a caller. Turn is a J. I bet and he calls. River is another J. So the board is K T 8 J J. I bet. He raises. I go $30. He goes $40. I think... hmmm... JJ? No raise preflop and no turn raise? I don't think so. I go $50. He looks puzzled and just calls. He had JT.
If he goes $60 I probably just call. I MIGHT go $70, but if he goes $80 over top then I definitely just call.
Keith
Even if I lost the hand.
Okay, okay. I give up.
And online cheating is super.
ScottyZ
Tough game.
ScottyZ
I have no idea where I got this number from. You actually win 22.9% of the time so a $3 rake costs you 69c of EV, and a $4 rake costs you 92c of EV. A $4 rake is costing you over 1/4 of your profits.
Keith