Rulings/ethics question.

Hork42

This scenario came up the other day in a live tournament. Didn't really impact me, but now I'm curious.

PlayerA Extremely shortstacked, stack is less than the BB.
PlayerB Average Stack
PlayerC Largestacked
PlayerD VeryShortstacked, maybe 2-3x BB

We'll say the blinds are 200-400.

PlayerA is forced all in on the BB. 100 chips in. PlayerB, PlayerC, PlayerD call/check and see the flop and a side pot is created.

Flop comes K x x. PlayerB bets out, and turns over a King and without saying any words starts sliding it back and forth to draw attention to it. It is fairly clear that PlayerB's attention is to coerce PlayerC into folding.

PlayerC (very loose and somewhat clueless player) after some deliberation, finally folds (after about 30 seconds of card sliding )
PlayerD's action at this point IMO is irrelevant (but if it makes a difference, was very ticked off at PlayerB after having flopped a set)

Question 1: Is PlayerB's action violating any rules?
Question 2: If not a direct violation, is it ethical?

Flint Bones

In some places, revealing your hole cards is the same as mucking and your cards are ruled dead. But I don't think it is a Robert's Rule (Trevor, correct me).

Is it ethical? I don't think ethics come into play here. I think stupidity comes into play. I don't understand why he did it. He just seems like an ass. So it is an assy thing to do, but I don't really think it is about ethics.

Hobbes

If I were player D...I'd be calling the floor boss over and demand that:

  A) His hand be decalred dead (or we see his other card... ).
  He be removed from the table.

Just my 2cents

Hobbes

beanie42

In most home games I've played, there is a rule that any hand exposed with action still pending is considered mucked.  I thought this was from Robert's, but this is apparently just a local understanding.  Robert's doesn't cover this.  The TDA states:

6. Penalties: A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, if a card(s) goes off the table, if softplay occurs, or similar incidents take place. Penalties WILL be invoked in cases of abuse, disruptive behavior, or similar incidents

36. A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.

So it is against the TDA rules, but the hand would still play. 

My opinion, learn the rules as well as you can, and use them (without breaking them) to your best advantage.  If the rules of this specific game did allow showing, then I'd have no problem with it.  If it didn't, that might be a problem.  In most sports you break the rules KNOWING you will receive a penalty (fouling in basketball, hooking a breakaway in hockey, clubbing somebody's knee in figure skating, etc.).  If you violate this rule as a strategy knowing you will receive a penalty, is it unethical or poor strategy?  This would be angle-shooting, and I wouldn't personally do something like this, but if somebody uses it as a strategy and is prepared to accept the consequences, I'm not sure.  I'll honestly have to think on that one since it's such a fine line.

BBC Z

and without saying any words starts sliding it back and forth to draw attention to it.

OooOOOo It's DANCING!

Anyway, no direct rule violation that would declare the hand dead. The player that showed the King should be put on an X minute post 'n blind.

ScottyZ

This is a much more gross offence than the usual "showing cards" dealio.

Due to the fact that there is currently an all-in player, showing a hand represents an active attempt to collude with the all-in player. Player B's action protects the all-in player's hand.

If I was the TD of this tournament, Player B would be immeditaely removed from the tournament. The hand in question would be declared a misdeal.

In terms of the TDA rules, here is the relevant rule I used in my ruling:

31. Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can, on occasion, dictate that the technical interpretation of the rules be ignored in the interest of fairness. The floor person’s decision is final.

ScottyZ

esool

That same crap happened at my home game a year a go after some clown saw another clown do it on TV. I then had to put a rule in writing for all future clowns that want to come to my game.

Here it is:
"Don’t show your cards early. I never thought I would have to tell people not to do this but I guess I do eh Dino? If you saw some shit on TV and you think you want to try it on our little Monday night game, how about you don’t instead? You wanna be a star? Save it for the final table at the WPT in Bahamas or some shit, cuz here your cards are going into the muck, mucker fucker. Yes, showing your cards at a casino cash game is allowed but this ain’t the fucken casino and it ain’t a cash game."

Some zucchini at the ToC champions in Port Perry pulled this same move when it was heads up. He exposed his hand before announcing all in. His hand was declared dead. You can read about it on pg 48 January's CPP mag.

This is a rule that differs from game to game. It seems common for it to be ok in a cash game but not in a tourney. The best thing is to ask the house rule ahead of time before pulling this crap. Or better yet just play some solid poker.

If this happened in my house I would verbally assault the mofo but anywhere else I would just keep quite and let the TD do his thing.

GBHShftMgr

Good call Scotty...

Cheers,

Lee

compuease

I don't know the specific rule for sure but I did see almost this exact thing happen in a tournament at the Sahara in Vegas last fall and at my table too... There was an immediate uproar at the table, the floor was called over and the hand that was exposed was declared dead... In actuality the all in hand ended up winning too... The kid who exposed his card, was also given a full round penalty and went out soon after on tilt... The floor told us that the practice was tolerated in a cash game but not in a tournament for obvious collusion reasons. Not sure if this makes a difference but that was the ruling there.

13CARDS

Observations:

I believe at Seneca, on a cash game, exposing one or both of your cards when there is further action is considered a muck. This is a new rule implemented recently. I am not sure of the tournament ruling.

At Fallsview, in a cash game, I believe the original rule (when the room opened last January) was that exposed cards were allowed. However, I do believe that rule has been changed to be in line with Seneca. *Note: I have not been in the poker room for quite a while and this ruling may or may not be accurate (there was recently a new poker room manager appointed for this room). I am not sure of the tournament ruling.

When Johnny Chan won the WSOP vs Eric Sidel, I do believe that he turned both of his cards face up (showing the nuts) before declaring All-In. *Note: Since Sidel moved all-in before Chan, and it was heads up, there was no pending action. Maybe a bad example.

When Johnny Chan won his 10th WSOP bracelet vs Phil Laak, Chan again threw his cards forward, face up, before declaring a call. *Note: See note above.

Hork42

13CARDS wrote:

When Johnny Chan won the WSOP vs Eric Sidel, I do believe that he turned both of his cards face up (showing the nuts) before declaring All-In. *Note: Since Sidel moved all-in before Chan, and it was heads up, there was no pending action. Maybe a bad example.

When Johnny Chan won his 10th WSOP bracelet vs Phil Laak, Chan again threw his cards forward, face up, before declaring a call.

yeah, this is different. Heads-up, I say do whatever you want.

When there are other people involved in the hand, I don't believe anyone should be allowed to give information about their hand either verbally or by exposing the cards.

esool

Hork42 wrote:

yeah, this is different.  Heads-up, I say do whatever you want.

When there are other people involved in the hand,  I don't believe anyone should be allowed to give information about their hand either verbally or by exposing the cards.

Heads up in the hand or heads up in the tournament?
If it is heads up in the hand but there are still other players that have folded then they all have an interest in seeing a player bust out..

Down to the final two it is a different story .. I guess.. Either way I don't like it.