desire to win
The last few days have been very difficult indeed. As I was reviewing my play yesterday, I came up with a thought. In an optimal state, our desire to win is balanced with objective analysis of hands and we make reasonable decisions based on our knowledge and skill level. However, there are many reasons why our desire to win increases and skews our objective analysis and we make much worse decisions. Yes, I know this is also known as Tilt. For me tilt is a vague term and I find it hard to manage vagueness.
In the last three days, my VP$IP% (voluntarily put money in pot) is less than 14%, for loose Party games. This means I've been getting very few hands to play. And, when I do play a hand, someone inevitably sucks out with something like J8s in EP and hitting a runner runner flush. Because I've been playing tight the damage was very reasonable and I was pretty much even until the third day. On that day, I blew a gasket -- well not really -- but I did manage to lose more than I thought was reasonable.
When I reviewed my play I noticed some interesting things. I was overplaying hands which were just slightly off my starting hand requirements. For instance, if I had 88 in EP and UTG raised, I would normally fold. However, because I hadn't seen a playable hand in a long time, AND I hadn't won a pot in a long time, I had this NEED to play a hand. Well, there's only one way to play 88 in that spot and that's to isolate UTG with a re-raise. So, I did. But the isolation didn't work and now I have a button, BB and UTG in the hand. With a 7 high flop UTG comes out betting and I start to "make up a story" which fits what I want to believe. The long and short of it, is that UTG has QQ and the BB ends up making a straight. And, I pay off. Sure, 88 is just two lower than my requirement for this re-raise and doesn't change things much. But I've entered a pot I normally wouldn't because my desire to win is too high.
I also noticed that I missed opportunities. When I do play something like AK, I'm folding when there's an inside straight draw and just enough odds to make the call. And, then the implied odds make this a great call. But, I drop out of the hand at the turn because I'm pissed my AK missed and I don't want to "piss" away more bets. I also miss opportunities to call preflop raises in the blinds with suited connectors. My view is skewed as I'm more pessimistic about crummy hands. However, there's gold in them thar hills, if I would just play my game.
Then I thought of Beanie and the physical reaction to losing. I would think this is a symptom of wanting to win too much. Although the aces were played to perfection, I think you might want to look for some overplaying/underplaying when you're in that state.
I can think of another instance, at the Westside tournament and Monkey Man paid me a visit. I clawed and scratched my way to a half decent stack. I have ATs utg and I think I should steal with this hand. Normally, I dump it in that situation. But I open raise, and the button calls and I see Devon look like he wants to make a raise but he calls in the BB. The flop comes A44 no spades. I totally ignore Devon's pre-flop desire to raise and the buttons excited look at the flop. I push, only to be called by A9 on the button and AQ from Devon. My desire to win the pot, brought on Monkey Man and got me to totally disregard the information available to me. So, I gave the chips to a better man (well at that point) and Devon went on to capture second. IGHN.
So, how to manage this. Well, one is awareness. That's why I write this post.
Cheers
Magi
In the last three days, my VP$IP% (voluntarily put money in pot) is less than 14%, for loose Party games. This means I've been getting very few hands to play. And, when I do play a hand, someone inevitably sucks out with something like J8s in EP and hitting a runner runner flush. Because I've been playing tight the damage was very reasonable and I was pretty much even until the third day. On that day, I blew a gasket -- well not really -- but I did manage to lose more than I thought was reasonable.
When I reviewed my play I noticed some interesting things. I was overplaying hands which were just slightly off my starting hand requirements. For instance, if I had 88 in EP and UTG raised, I would normally fold. However, because I hadn't seen a playable hand in a long time, AND I hadn't won a pot in a long time, I had this NEED to play a hand. Well, there's only one way to play 88 in that spot and that's to isolate UTG with a re-raise. So, I did. But the isolation didn't work and now I have a button, BB and UTG in the hand. With a 7 high flop UTG comes out betting and I start to "make up a story" which fits what I want to believe. The long and short of it, is that UTG has QQ and the BB ends up making a straight. And, I pay off. Sure, 88 is just two lower than my requirement for this re-raise and doesn't change things much. But I've entered a pot I normally wouldn't because my desire to win is too high.
I also noticed that I missed opportunities. When I do play something like AK, I'm folding when there's an inside straight draw and just enough odds to make the call. And, then the implied odds make this a great call. But, I drop out of the hand at the turn because I'm pissed my AK missed and I don't want to "piss" away more bets. I also miss opportunities to call preflop raises in the blinds with suited connectors. My view is skewed as I'm more pessimistic about crummy hands. However, there's gold in them thar hills, if I would just play my game.
Then I thought of Beanie and the physical reaction to losing. I would think this is a symptom of wanting to win too much. Although the aces were played to perfection, I think you might want to look for some overplaying/underplaying when you're in that state.
I can think of another instance, at the Westside tournament and Monkey Man paid me a visit. I clawed and scratched my way to a half decent stack. I have ATs utg and I think I should steal with this hand. Normally, I dump it in that situation. But I open raise, and the button calls and I see Devon look like he wants to make a raise but he calls in the BB. The flop comes A44 no spades. I totally ignore Devon's pre-flop desire to raise and the buttons excited look at the flop. I push, only to be called by A9 on the button and AQ from Devon. My desire to win the pot, brought on Monkey Man and got me to totally disregard the information available to me. So, I gave the chips to a better man (well at that point) and Devon went on to capture second. IGHN.
So, how to manage this. Well, one is awareness. That's why I write this post.
Cheers
Magi
Comments
I find that my desire to win makes me starting thinking about all the x-factors, like what peoples re-actions are when they look at their hands, how their body language changes or doesn't change when the flop comes out, what were that last few hands that they showed were, what my body language may be saying and so on.
Once I get rid of the idea that "I want to make it into the money" and focus on the idea that "I want to win the whole thing" does my game play improve. Also if I focus on winning I find I do not play scared and sometimes even though I do not have the best hands, because of my attitude that I'm going to win, I get better hands to fold.
Don’t know if that helps or not but it seems to work for me.
I agree that my physical reaction was wanting to win to much. However, I seem to have reasonable "tilt control" in tournaments. I notice when I get cracked so badly that I won't play well, and I usually take those opportunities for a break. A few people have seen me in this state, and I've literally folded hands blind since I don't trust myself until I calm down.
However, cash games (which I'm new at) seem different to me. In tournaments, getting sucked out can mean the end. However, because ring games is simply variance (and I'll win the next X times), I "think" that I'm ignoring it pretty well. My thought process is basically, "that sucks, but keep doing the right thing". The problem is that while I'm consciously ok, my results show that I'm subconsciously steaming. I remember someone refererring to this as "background tilt", and that seems appropriate. Even though I "know" variance, and I feel like I'm shrugging it off, there must be something a bit deeper that gets set off (and causes me to induce a losing streak).
As you said, awareness is key. I am aware of my tilt in tournaments, but my ring game tilt was hidden until last night. Now that I recognize it I'll need to figure out how to deal with it appropriately. Just another thing to work on I guess
I didn't think of this, but it can happen. Â The desire to win is reduced, becuase we now "don't want to lose". Â On my graph, the redline would start below the greenline with every hand being underplayed. Â Yuck. Â I think we get into big tournaments, and this is the result. Â Won't likely be one of the forum members that "doesn't want to lose", but I have seen many players in higher buyin tournaments which start out this way. Â Then they lose a hand, and the desire to win shoots up, and they overplay almost every hand.
I think this is the optimal state -- where you have a strong desire to win, but it's balanced with an objective view of the information at hand. I see that as a 50% desire to win. Â Not that your desire to win is only 50%. Â It's that your desire to win is equally balanced by objective information. Â I should have made the scale 200% where an optimal state is 100% deisre to win. Â I want to describe when there are strong forces acting in our brain which cause us to ignore the information we have at hand. Â That happens when we get a bad beat and we want to fix our ego, or when I haven't played a hand in a long time, or when I haven't won in a long time. Â It's amazing how strong this force can be and how it can cause me to ignore the x-factors, or the obvious information at hand.
Yep it all helps. It's a strange phenomenon.
I definitely have issues, but that's another story -- i'd bet a large sum, you're getting better!.
I would say that anytime you're not playing optimally, that's tilt. Folding blind is likely a better option than dumping your whole stack. However, it may be a missed opportunity and would be tilt in my view. At the WPT event I saw Syracuse Chris take a walk becuase a lady hit her two outer on the river which she should have never seen. When he took the walk, I knew he was finished. The whole table started licking their chops. I think the key is just staying in that steady state, focusing on the end goal -- focus on strengths/weaknesses of players and how to exploit them. And, then staying away from the overplay and/or underplay.
I have strict starting hand requirements. Just changing them by one seat will cause me to spew chips needlessly. I have the same problem. I have one sure fire way to stop it -- and that's to stop playing. It's all one big long game, and the more I do this, the more I improve my results. But, I'm also looking to figure this out, so I can keep playing.Â
Ain't this a wonderful game. The more I learn about the game, the more I realize I need to manage myself!
Cheers
Magi
I have a similar problem, but for different reasons....if I'm playing a tight game and not getting any cards that I deem "playable", I start to get bored and then hands that I'd normally fold start to look reeallllllyyyy good. It's gotten me into trouble more times than I'd care to admit.
well thought out and articulate original post followed by intelligent feedback.
This is the kind of thing that could separate CPF from some other forums (wheat from chaff etc..)
If I take some nice pots early on, I tend to get overly aggressively, and find it hard for me to THINK my way through a hand. I call it my Superman Complex...nothing can beat me...until I get hammered back to reality. It takes alot of concentration to get back into the frame of mind I need to get in to get back into the game again.
Another problem I have is much the same as Eleanor's...if I don't get playable cards after awhile, I get bored and I lower my starting hand expectations (same as you mentioned in the OP Magi) and end up playing weaker cards than I would have liked. Sometimes, if I catch a nice flop, it's just enough to get my mind back on the straight and narrow, but more often it's just one bad move after another.
I know we all tilt and I try to catch myself when it happens, especially in ring games online. But when my pocket Aces hit trips on the flop, and I get sucked out by a Ace high flush (the one I DIDN'T HAVE