I hate the way I played this

specialK

I hate the way I played this, just tell me everything I did wrong...

PokerStars Game #3795997586: Tournament #18470010, Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2006/01/29 - 14:54:10 (ET)
Table '18470010 43' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: fivecent5 (16574 in chips)
Seat 2: Bacon0305 (12638 in chips)
Seat 3: Gill7 (10216 in chips)
Seat 4: Jrgoldenbear (10421 in chips)
Seat 5: thebigugs (7740 in chips) <--- this is me
Seat 6: WaterfallMA (11267 in chips)
Seat 7: lots'o pot (7035 in chips)
Seat 8: kieranwurtz (14670 in chips)
Seat 9: sekme (18867 in chips)
thebigugs: posts small blind 100
WaterfallMA: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to thebigugs [Kh Ah]
lots'o pot: folds
kieranwurtz: folds
sekme: folds
fivecent5: calls 200
Bacon0305: folds
Gill7: calls 200
Jrgoldenbear: raises 800 to 1000
thebigugs: calls 900
WaterfallMA: folds
fivecent5: folds
Gill7: folds
*** FLOP *** [2c 9s 8c]
thebigugs: checks
Jrgoldenbear: bets 1200
thebigugs: folds
Jrgoldenbear collected 2600 from pot
Jrgoldenbear: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2600 | Rake 0
Board [2c 9s 8c]
Seat 1: fivecent5 folded before Flop
Seat 2: Bacon0305 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Gill7 folded before Flop
Seat 4: Jrgoldenbear (button) collected (2600)
Seat 5: thebigugs (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: WaterfallMA (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: lots'o pot folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: kieranwurtz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: sekme folded before Flop (didn't bet)

roketinpoket

I might have made a probe bet, but I don't think that you completely misplayed the hand. Just realize that you're not going to win every hand.

JohnnieH

He probally had an overpair. (QQ??)

Sleep easy, my friend, it wasn't that bad.

JohnnieH

SirWatts

I don't see anything wrong with pushing preflop. It's going to be hard to play this hand out of position after you call, and Idon't see any reason to put him on a monster. He could just be trying to isolate the limpers especially if they are weak and tend to limp a lot. If you get in a big race so be it.

SOS

I wise man once wrote ( I think it was Cloutier) that in order to win a tournament, you will need to win 6 ( I think it was 6) races.
This would have been a good place to race preflop... when it was 900 to you and the pot was at 1700.

I agree with Sir Watts that a preflop push is best, but since you just called, then for sure a 1/2 pot bet on the flop to represent a small blind special would be in order.

specialK

yeah that's basically what i thought.... i hated just the flat call preflop and then not betting out on the flop... i feel like i got abused by AQ or AJ... i think my proper move here is pushing preflop, thanks.

Dave Scharf

My thoughts...

Table '18470010 43' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: fivecent5 (16574 in chips)
Seat 2: Bacon0305 (12638 in chips)
Seat 3: Gill7 (10216 in chips)
Seat 4: Jrgoldenbear (10421 in chips)
Seat 5: thebigugs (7740 in chips) <--- this is me
Seat 6: WaterfallMA (11267 in chips)
Seat 7: lots'o pot (7035 in chips)
Seat 8: kieranwurtz (14670 in chips)
Seat 9: sekme (18867 in chips)
thebigugs: posts small blind 100
WaterfallMA: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to thebigugs [Kh Ah]
lots'o pot: folds
kieranwurtz: folds
sekme: folds
fivecent5: calls 200
Bacon0305: folds
Gill7: calls 200
Jrgoldenbear: raises 800 to 1000
thebigugs: calls 900
WaterfallMA: folds
fivecent5: folds
Gill7: folds

You have LOTS of chips. 7700 with a big blind of just 200 ,everything is beautiful. I always start a hand analysis by asking where is out hero relative to the size of the blinds. You still have lots. What this means, to me, is that I am playing "small pot poker." I do NOT want to get into big confrontations if I can help it.

What to do facing his raise? He has made an overbet. You are facing a call of 800 into a pot of 1300. At face value this looks good, but it's not. AK is very hard to play out of position, as you are. Yes, you are only dominated by AA and KK.

Push? I think that's gross. Pushing will win 1300 or lose everything and you are not in crisis mode. Far from it. What about a raise that will motivate him to fold, but is not all in. How about making it 3000 flat. He faces 2000 into 4100. If he is on a pure steal, he will fold. If he calls, you proceed with caution. If he re-raises and moves you in you are facing 4700 into 10,800. You are getting 2-1. I probably fold to a re-raise, assume he has AA or KK and lick my wounds.

Fold is OK. The size of his bet makes it OK. It will be hard to escape without damage if he has you beat. You want to play small pot poker, he has made that difficult be betting so much early.

Call is OK, but not my preference. What flop will make you some money? Not too many.

I prefer the re-raise, but I can live with folding or calling. A lot will depend upon what I think about this player.

*** FLOP *** [2c 9s 8c]
thebigugs: checks
Jrgoldenbear: bets 1200
thebigugs: folds
Jrgoldenbear collected 2600 from pot
Jrgoldenbear: doesn't show hand

I think that's fine. You missed. There is no shame in check and fold. I think a bet of 1000 from you would also have been fine.

Generally, I think that call followed by check and fold is the weakest line. You are not attempting, at any point, to fight for the pot with what may well be the best hand. If you are willing to call and then check/fold with AK, what are you going to do with 66? K-Q? If you allow yourelf to be run over, you will be run over. AK ought to put up someting of a fight.

specialK

i know i'm weak tight sometimes, i don't know what i was thinking when i played this hand... anyway yeah about KQ, i fold it.

Dave Scharf

My point about KQ is that if a player gets into his head that your BB's are easy then he may start to attack ALL THE TIME. If that happens, hands like KQ and 66 are going to have to go to war. It's preferable to keep that from happening by communicating that "my blind is not for sale."

AK seems a good hand to send that message with. In some way.

T_Mac

calling then check folding is probably the safest play, but well who likes safe?

its a button raiser with a big stack vs 2 limpers, unless ur read is that hes super tight, id definitely reraise here. but unlike dave, id call his allin (online tournies allin doesnt mean aa/kk that much). if he calls ur reraise, then pray u hit the flop. if u miss then id probably check, and see how he responds. some ppl here will bluff allin with aq miss, so u just have to make a read on the guy. hopefully he'll check behind and ur ak high is good.

SirWatts

I think reraising and folding to a push here is terrible. Most players pushing range is anything they don't want to fold so they might as well get it all-in now. For an online player in a small buy-in MTT Iwould never give him credit for a range tighter than AA-JJ, AK here, which is an easy call getting 2:1. I'm never that surprised when they show me something worse either, i think AQ or AQs especially is possible here depending on the player. That's why I recommended a push because in my mind the 2 are basically the same thing, though I may make the normal reraise because a push looks like AK to must people and they will play accordingly. I guess one advantage of the normal reraise is if he flat calls maybe you can get away if you miss the flop but then we'd be stuck i nthe same situation wondering if we got outplayed by a worse hand or another AK etc... Pushing really isn't that bad.

Dave Scharf

I think reraising and folding to a push here is terrible.

It might be... it might not be. If he has AA or KK it'a a great laydown. If he has QQ, JJ, or AK it's a bad laydown. It will be close either way and I would not fault anyone for folding.

Most players pushing range is anything they don't want to fold so they might as well get it all-in now.

I don't agree with this. I think a lot of players with AK will call here and not move in. I think the same goes for JJ. AA to KK they re-raise for sure. This is why, I'm guessing, that we see the hand differently. That and I didn't know this was a small buy-in event. It looks to me like a bigger online event. No?

I guess one advantage of the normal reraise is if he flat calls maybe you can get away if you miss the flop but then we'd be stuck i nthe same situation wondering if we got outplayed by a worse hand or another AK etc... Pushing really isn't that bad.

This is, I think, THE advantage to a standard re-raise as opposed to moving in. Moving in give you no chance to escape if you are beat. Standard raise will give you another chance pre-flop (if he re-raises) and another chance on the flop. Bet just enough to get the job done. What job do we want to accomplish? If we choose the path or re-raising we want him to fold. How much do we have to bet to accomplish that? All-in is too much. In fact, all-in is counter to our purpose since it will tend to narrow his calling range and the hands we WANT to call us will fold.

SirWatts

Well even against a range of QQ-AA the numbers say call getting 2:1 and we definitely see JJ and AK push in at least *some* of the time. I will agree there might be some value in getting away if he flat calls but it's really not something I would feel comfortable doing. This might well be a leak but I'd rather just get it all-in preflop and see all 5 cards, the times Idraw out on the flop and he can't fold JJ will help compensate for the times I miss the flop and can maybe get away from my hand against his pair. Idon't think many more hands call a normal reraise than a push here either, both are showing the same strength I think since people will not expect you to fold after making the reraise. In a live game i think there is a lot more value in playing it the way you suggest since combining a read on the player with this analysis is likely enough to make some of these marginal decisions correctly a high enough % of the time, but online we don't have this luxury.

ScottyZ

The amount of the buy-in matters.

This appears to be a $10 + $1 Deep Stacks freezeout MTT on Stars: $5,000 starting chips, 30 minute levels. This is probably why it may appear to be a "large" event at first glance.

I had actually incorrectly guessed that it was a re-buy tournament.

The tournament format being established, on with the show!

With a stack size of around 8 times the amount of the raise, I would move all-in.

Merely calling pre-flop with AK can be a strong play if the amount of the call is a tiny portion of your stack size (such as in the very early stages of a tourney). However, I think that 1/8 of your stack is too expensive a price to be peeling off a flop with a strong but vulnerable1 hand like AK.

Re-raising to an amount less than all-in (maybe something like $2,500 or $3,000) leaves you in an unhappy place if you either (a) are re-raised (probably all-in) pre-flop or (b) miss the flop, at least one of which will probably happen around 75% of the time. I'm with SirWatts here in the sense that, in an $10 tournament, I am not giving an opponent who moves all-in in this spot credit for KK or better.

As for folding, there are simply too many times I'm going to have to get lucky in the future stages of a tournament (even a deep stacks one) to avoid taking a shot with AK here.

Will I fold an AK if I am pretty sure that one of my opponents has a pocket pair? Sometimes. Am I convinced of that here? Not really. The opponent's raise is compatible with some hands that I can beat, some that I beat badly, and, most importantly, some that I beat badly and may get action from when moving all-in in a $10 tournament. Not to mention the odd time I'll get a pocket pair to fold, which is really earning the pre-flop cookies.

ScottyZ

1Vulnerable in the sense of flopping no pair about 66% of the time.