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Jay's Trip Report #2 (06/13/04)
I went with my friend for his birthday and he joined my table after watching for a little bit since it was his first exposure to a limit game.
I sat with $180 at a pretty loose table. Here are the hands I played to the best of my memory:
I pick up K6 in the BB and check. The flop is T 6 X. Checks all around, free turn. The turn is a 6. I check-raise and there's a few in. The flop is a rag, and I bet on the river and take down the pot. I beat someone with a T in their hand.
I pick up TT on the button. There's a bunch of limpers so I raise to get some out, the blinds and limpers call and only a couple fold. Not good. The flop is 9 6 2 rainbow. There's a bet in front of me and I raise to get some hands out. SB and a few others stay in. I'm screwed unless I make my set, I'm thinking in my head. The turn is a J, there's a bet in front of me and I just call as does everyone else. The river is a 3. It's checked to me and I take the free showdown. SB has 54 for the nut straight and said he was check-raising the river which I would've done too. The guy to my right who was betting on the flop and turn was mad because he had 92 for two pair which was good until the river.
I pick up QQ in middle position and raise, there's 5-6 callers. The flop is A J T, all hearts. I have the queen of hearts for the royal flush draw, I bet and get callers. The turn is a rag, I bet again and most stay in. The river is another rag. I check-fold. The guy to my right who played 92 before had 7h5h and took the pot. His calling my raises with garbage seems to be working for him.
I pick up red aces in middle position and raise, there's only a few callers (Where are the junk hand callers now??). The flop is Q high, I think. I bet and get called by one person. I bet the turn and he folds. I'm sad inside because I didn't make much with that hand.
My friend joins the table now. I pick up AK in middle position and raise, there's 3-4 callers. The flop is Q high, I think. I check-call, I think. The turn is a K. I check-raise. The river is a rag, I bet and everyone folds.
Those are pretty much the only hands that I played to the river. I was down like $90 when the table broke up. My friend and I got moved to a table with 4-5 tough players with big stacks. I bought another $100 to add some ammo to my short stack. I play even less hands here than at the first table. I got maybe one playable hand per orbit. Here are the hands I played, again to the best of my memory:
I pick up AK in the SB and stupidly limp in. Yes, I know I'm an idiot for not raising but I limped because I didn't want to scare off the limpers since this was the first hand I played in a long time. The flop is Q 8 X, I check-call. The turn is a K, I check-raise and it's only the BB left. The river is a rag, check-check. He has Q8s for two pairs. If I raised preflop I'm sure he would've folded since he was a solid player. Dumb playing by me.
I pick up TT in middle position and raise, there's a few callers. The flop is 9 high, I check-raise. The turn is a K, I bet and get called by one person. The river is a rag, I bet and he folds.
I pick up AK in middle position and raise this time, there's a few callers. The flop is 9 7 X, I bet and get called. The turn is a K or A, I forget which one. I check-raise. The river is a T and I check-raise, and the other guy is all-in. He had 86 and made a straight on the river. I'm sad, again.
Here's a hand that I would've took down a nice pot if I stayed the whole way. I pick up 99 UTG and limp then call a raise from LP. The flop is Q J 8, I check and it three bets for me to call, I fold. The river was a 9 for my set which was good against the one tough player's (raiser) top pair top kicker hand.
Those are pretty the only hand I played to the river. I was getting cold cards 90% of the time, a lot of baby-face hands (new term?). My stack was just getting blinded off, or I saw the flop and check-folded.
The player two to my left was getting ridiculous hands the whole night. He got AA more times than I got any pocket pairs, and he made a set with them half the time (he was keeping count). He made quads with QQ once. He also made more boats than in Pirates of the Carribean. Every hand he played which was probably half the time, he had a top fifteen hand and won most of the time. I'm surprised his stack wasn't bigger.
There was a guy probably around 20-21 years old who had a stack of $1,000 when I got to the table, he was a very good player. He mentioned that he was playing full-time this summer since he was off from school. Do you know him, Keith? He won like 90% of his hands at showdowns. I knew to stay away from him when he rams and jams.
MiamiKeith sat at my table like half and hour before I left. I never got to play a hand with him though. I didn't approach him, in case it wasn't him and I didn't want to look like a loser/nerd introducing myself to him as the "guy who posts at pokerforum.ca" in front of everyone else. I left the table with about $10 leftover and said "I'm leaving with enough to get a Happy Meal." It got some chuckles.
Overall, I had a fun time at the second table because the two guys to my left were funny and nice guys. I learned some things from watching the 20-21 year old guy play. There was an older guy who told him that he didn't appreciate his talking too much, which stirred up a little verbal argument. Some of us found that really funny, I noticed Keith trying to hold in laughter the best he could. That guy also talked a player into showing him his hand on the river when he was contemplating calling the bet. Funny stuff. I didn't like playing at the first table. The players were too loose for my game, and I knew I wasn't going to win anything/much against a whole group of loose players.
I ended up stuck $270 in my seven hour session, worse than my last session.
I'm not upset or anything this time though because I enjoyed myself at the second table.
Comments and suggestions are always welcome (and preferred).
I sat with $180 at a pretty loose table. Here are the hands I played to the best of my memory:
I pick up K6 in the BB and check. The flop is T 6 X. Checks all around, free turn. The turn is a 6. I check-raise and there's a few in. The flop is a rag, and I bet on the river and take down the pot. I beat someone with a T in their hand.
I pick up TT on the button. There's a bunch of limpers so I raise to get some out, the blinds and limpers call and only a couple fold. Not good. The flop is 9 6 2 rainbow. There's a bet in front of me and I raise to get some hands out. SB and a few others stay in. I'm screwed unless I make my set, I'm thinking in my head. The turn is a J, there's a bet in front of me and I just call as does everyone else. The river is a 3. It's checked to me and I take the free showdown. SB has 54 for the nut straight and said he was check-raising the river which I would've done too. The guy to my right who was betting on the flop and turn was mad because he had 92 for two pair which was good until the river.
I pick up QQ in middle position and raise, there's 5-6 callers. The flop is A J T, all hearts. I have the queen of hearts for the royal flush draw, I bet and get callers. The turn is a rag, I bet again and most stay in. The river is another rag. I check-fold. The guy to my right who played 92 before had 7h5h and took the pot. His calling my raises with garbage seems to be working for him.
I pick up red aces in middle position and raise, there's only a few callers (Where are the junk hand callers now??). The flop is Q high, I think. I bet and get called by one person. I bet the turn and he folds. I'm sad inside because I didn't make much with that hand.
My friend joins the table now. I pick up AK in middle position and raise, there's 3-4 callers. The flop is Q high, I think. I check-call, I think. The turn is a K. I check-raise. The river is a rag, I bet and everyone folds.
Those are pretty much the only hands that I played to the river. I was down like $90 when the table broke up. My friend and I got moved to a table with 4-5 tough players with big stacks. I bought another $100 to add some ammo to my short stack. I play even less hands here than at the first table. I got maybe one playable hand per orbit. Here are the hands I played, again to the best of my memory:
I pick up AK in the SB and stupidly limp in. Yes, I know I'm an idiot for not raising but I limped because I didn't want to scare off the limpers since this was the first hand I played in a long time. The flop is Q 8 X, I check-call. The turn is a K, I check-raise and it's only the BB left. The river is a rag, check-check. He has Q8s for two pairs. If I raised preflop I'm sure he would've folded since he was a solid player. Dumb playing by me.
I pick up TT in middle position and raise, there's a few callers. The flop is 9 high, I check-raise. The turn is a K, I bet and get called by one person. The river is a rag, I bet and he folds.
I pick up AK in middle position and raise this time, there's a few callers. The flop is 9 7 X, I bet and get called. The turn is a K or A, I forget which one. I check-raise. The river is a T and I check-raise, and the other guy is all-in. He had 86 and made a straight on the river. I'm sad, again.
Here's a hand that I would've took down a nice pot if I stayed the whole way. I pick up 99 UTG and limp then call a raise from LP. The flop is Q J 8, I check and it three bets for me to call, I fold. The river was a 9 for my set which was good against the one tough player's (raiser) top pair top kicker hand.
Those are pretty the only hand I played to the river. I was getting cold cards 90% of the time, a lot of baby-face hands (new term?). My stack was just getting blinded off, or I saw the flop and check-folded.
The player two to my left was getting ridiculous hands the whole night. He got AA more times than I got any pocket pairs, and he made a set with them half the time (he was keeping count). He made quads with QQ once. He also made more boats than in Pirates of the Carribean. Every hand he played which was probably half the time, he had a top fifteen hand and won most of the time. I'm surprised his stack wasn't bigger.
There was a guy probably around 20-21 years old who had a stack of $1,000 when I got to the table, he was a very good player. He mentioned that he was playing full-time this summer since he was off from school. Do you know him, Keith? He won like 90% of his hands at showdowns. I knew to stay away from him when he rams and jams.
MiamiKeith sat at my table like half and hour before I left. I never got to play a hand with him though. I didn't approach him, in case it wasn't him and I didn't want to look like a loser/nerd introducing myself to him as the "guy who posts at pokerforum.ca" in front of everyone else. I left the table with about $10 leftover and said "I'm leaving with enough to get a Happy Meal." It got some chuckles.
Overall, I had a fun time at the second table because the two guys to my left were funny and nice guys. I learned some things from watching the 20-21 year old guy play. There was an older guy who told him that he didn't appreciate his talking too much, which stirred up a little verbal argument. Some of us found that really funny, I noticed Keith trying to hold in laughter the best he could. That guy also talked a player into showing him his hand on the river when he was contemplating calling the bet. Funny stuff. I didn't like playing at the first table. The players were too loose for my game, and I knew I wasn't going to win anything/much against a whole group of loose players.
I ended up stuck $270 in my seven hour session, worse than my last session.
I'm not upset or anything this time though because I enjoyed myself at the second table.Comments and suggestions are always welcome (and preferred).
Comments
I've found that it's exceedingly rare for a limper to fold for one more bet. A couple of times, you referred to "raising to try to get limpers out". Most of the time that's just not going to happen.
Furthermore, every limper who was correct to limp in the first place is normally getting at least double the previous pot odds, and is almost always correct in calling one more bet, despite the presence of a raiser who has shown strength. What's absolutely vital here though, is that low-limit limpers are typically *not* correct when limping in in the first place.
Even knowing that the limpers will call, you still *do* want to raise pre-flop with strong hands for several reasons:
1. There may be players behind you that you can drive out since they will not call two (or more) bets cold. As a special case, you are also not allowing the big blind to get a free play, nor the small blind a half-bet limping chance.
2. You are most often making a correct raise for value. This simply means that you often have the best hand and raising is nothing more than getting more money in the pot when you've got the best of it. That's how you win at low-limit poker.
If you have a strong hand pre-flop, you should typically *not*
1. Just call because you want more action.
2. Just call because the limpers will call your raise anyway.
Notice that these two points are pretty much exactly the opposite thinking as the two correct (at least I think so) points above.
Also, in low-limit, you pretty much *never* need to vary you play to disguise a strong pre-flop hand. Low-limit players generally just aren't paying enough attention to the action to even notice who raised, let alone trying to put people (i.e. you) on hands.
Remember that low-limit players are going to make serious pre-flop limping errors. Make them pay double for those mistakes when you have the goods.
ScottyZ
I just remembered one more hand I played at the second table:
I pick up KQ in middle position and raise, there's a few that call. The flop is K Q 6, there's a bet in front of me and I raised forcing a couple out and leaving me with the bettor who calls. The turn is a 6, I bet. The river is a rag, I bet, he calls, and I have his pair of queens beat. One of the guys who folded on my raise on the flop folded a 6 and complimented me on a good raise to knock out his would-be winning hand.
This is an *excellent* example of a hand that many players will slowplay, but I think absolutely should not be slowplayed. I agree that this is was a great play to play this hand fast by raising on the flop.
ScottyZ
I dont like your line of thinking when you say 'I woulda won if I stayed in' because it has the potential to cost you a lot of money in the longterm if you start to believe it. If you are not getting the odds to chase, fold the hand and disregard the turn/river. I realise that in your case, you probably only highlighted the hand for the sake of the trip report, but it serves as a good general warning.
Whenever fun stuff like that hapens to me, I swear at the poker gods for putting that card 7 from the top of the deck (on the flop) rather than 3 and move on.
I rarely raise from the blinds with AK, when facing a lot of limpers. You're going to be out of position for the whole hand, and while your hand is good, it's not THAT good. AK can be hard to play post-flop, and the fact that you are out of position makes it A LOT harder. Furthermore, AK is much easier to play in a small pot than in a large one. If 6 people limp and you raise from the big blind, for example, you are building a large multi-way pot with a hand that doesn't play very well multi-way. You still win more than your fair share of pots (so raising has some value) but this is counter-balanced by the fact that you will probably make some mistakes post-flop (on a lot of flops). If you are going to raise AK from the blinds in a multi-way pot, have a game plan. What are you going to do when the flop comes 9 6 2? How about Q 8 6? Your bad position is almost certainly going to cause you to make some mistakes.
Having said that, if I am facing a late-position raise, I will usually re-raise, because while limpers will rarely fold for one more bet, they often WILL fold for two (particularly if they realize that there is a decent chance that the original raiser migh cap it) and thinning the field is worth A LOT with a hand like AK. People who just limp with AK because "you don't have anything yet" are the same people who complain that it never wins. It does A LOT better 3-handed than 6-handed.
Keith