A Play That Baffles Me - Feedback Appreciated
As I play a ton of 2/4- 5/10 limit hands I am definitely noticing styles of play that differ from site to site (ie: Party is different from the world :P) as well at times from table to table, depending on the players.
There is still one play I really see a lot more then I would expect that pretty much baffles me. It is always from looser then average players (though not insanely loose). They are usually a bit more passive then average, though not in a Party Poker calling machine sense.
I will not bluff these people much since they call a lot, but what they also do is call all the way to the river then raise once the pot is too big for me to fold with even a marginal hand (which I have to have if betting into them - though they may not realize that). I fully expect a suckout or that they have hit a draw or had trips but all of a sudden they have basically nothing. I then wonder if I should have 3 bet, but looking at my hands they are usually solid but can be easily beat as well based on the board. Still, I cannot help but wonder if I am losing out on value here.
I can pretty much identify these players after a while, and their style definitely stands out though not as glaringly as a maniac who raises like mad preflop and right after the flop or a Party style calling station who's raise on the river means their inside straight draw hit or the underpair hit trips on the river. Still, I am having a hard time getting myself to push the extra raises in when ahead.
Below are a few hands from today illustrating this. In one I did do the 3 bet finally and it paid off (it was the final instance of this type of play today).
If these are just randomly bad players then so be it, though I am trying to figure out how this style of play develops so I can make the most from it. It is much more prominent on Poker Stars then party Poker. Thanks in advance
Hand 1:
PokerStars Game #3750497025: Hold'em Limit ($2/$4) - 2006/01/25 - 09:31:04 (ET)
Table 'Puppis' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Bitterend ($36 in chips)
Seat 2: Monteroy ($146 in chips)
Seat 4: megaard ($98 in chips)
Seat 6: thetalker ($206 in chips)
Seat 7: sham69r ($57.50 in chips)
Seat 8: BucRepeat ($99 in chips)
Seat 9: Renauldi ($107 in chips)
Seat 10: gavvy ($54 in chips)
gavvy: posts small blind $1
Bitterend: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [Qs Qh]
Monteroy: raises $2 to $4
megaard: folds
thetalker: folds
sham69r: calls $4
BucRepeat: folds
Renauldi: folds
gavvy: folds
Bitterend: folds
*** FLOP *** [Js 4d 2c]
Monteroy: bets $2
sham69r: calls $2
*** TURN *** [Js 4d 2c] [8d]
Monteroy: bets $4
sham69r: calls $4
*** RIVER *** [Js 4d 2c 8d] [4s]
Monteroy: bets $4
sham69r: raises $4 to $8
Monteroy: calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sham69r: shows [Qc Ad] (a pair of Fours)
Monteroy: shows [Qs Qh] (two pair, Queens and Fours)
Monteroy collected $38 from pot
Hand 2:
PokerStars Game #3753277049: Hold'em Limit ($2/$4) - 2006/01/25 - 16:43:25 (ET)
Table 'Tselina' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: BucRepeat ($188 in chips)
Seat 2: FourSuits20 ($36 in chips)
Seat 3: luckydonut ($46 in chips)
Seat 4: masterc6666 ($102 in chips)
Seat 5: Gregory06 ($143 in chips)
Seat 6: HoldenBeach ($50 in chips)
Seat 7: Monteroy ($216 in chips)
Seat 8: UnSuited ($56 in chips)
Seat 9: Langfuhr ($96 in chips)
Seat 10: PJK_522 ($68.50 in chips)
PJK_522: posts small blind $1
BucRepeat: posts big blind $2
HoldenBeach: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [9h 9d]
FourSuits20: folds
luckydonut: folds
masterc6666: folds
Gregory06: folds
HoldenBeach: checks
Monteroy: raises $2 to $4
UnSuited: folds
Langfuhr: folds
PJK_522: folds
BucRepeat: calls $2
HoldenBeach: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [Th Qh 6c]
BucRepeat: checks
HoldenBeach: checks
Monteroy: checks
*** TURN *** [Th Qh 6c] [7s]
BucRepeat: checks
HoldenBeach: checks
Monteroy: bets $4
BucRepeat: folds
HoldenBeach: calls $4
*** RIVER *** [Th Qh 6c 7s] [8h]
HoldenBeach: checks
Monteroy: bets $4
HoldenBeach: raises $4 to $8
Monteroy: calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HoldenBeach: shows [As Tc] (a pair of Tens)
Monteroy: shows [9h 9d] (a straight, Six to Ten)
Monteroy collected $36 from pot
Hand 3:
PokerStars Game #3753688294: Hold'em Limit ($2/$4) - 2006/01/25 - 17:26:17 (ET)
Table 'Tselina' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: BucRepeat ($162 in chips)
Seat 2: FourSuits20 ($94 in chips)
Seat 3: luckydonut ($63.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Tarrakan ($50.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Gregory06 ($196 in chips)
Seat 6: lonnie1 ($32 in chips)
Seat 7: Monteroy ($248 in chips)
Seat 9: DJMardy ($39.50 in chips)
Seat 10: PJK_522 ($66.50 in chips)
Monteroy: posts small blind $1
DJMardy said, "nh"
webb22: is sitting out
DJMardy: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [Ac Tc]
PJK_522: folds
PJK_522 said, "ty"
BucRepeat: folds
FourSuits20: folds
luckydonut: folds
Tarrakan: folds
Gregory06: folds
lonnie1: folds
Monteroy: raises $2 to $4
DJMardy: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [2c 9c 6h]
Monteroy: bets $2
DJMardy: calls $2
*** TURN *** [2c 9c 6h] [8s]
Monteroy: bets $4
DJMardy: calls $4
*** RIVER *** [2c 9c 6h 8s] [7d]
Monteroy: bets $4
DJMardy: raises $4 to $8
Monteroy: raises $4 to $12
DJMardy: calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Monteroy: shows [Ac Tc] (a straight, Six to Ten)
DJMardy: mucks hand (he had Ah 3s)
Monteroy collected $42 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $44 | Rake $2
Board [2c 9c 6h 8s 7d]
Seat 1: BucRepeat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: FourSuits20 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: luckydonut folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Tarrakan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Gregory06 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: lonnie1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Monteroy (small blind) showed [Ac Tc] and won ($42) with a straight, Six to Ten
Seat 9: DJMardy (big blind) mucked [3s Ah]
There is still one play I really see a lot more then I would expect that pretty much baffles me. It is always from looser then average players (though not insanely loose). They are usually a bit more passive then average, though not in a Party Poker calling machine sense.
I will not bluff these people much since they call a lot, but what they also do is call all the way to the river then raise once the pot is too big for me to fold with even a marginal hand (which I have to have if betting into them - though they may not realize that). I fully expect a suckout or that they have hit a draw or had trips but all of a sudden they have basically nothing. I then wonder if I should have 3 bet, but looking at my hands they are usually solid but can be easily beat as well based on the board. Still, I cannot help but wonder if I am losing out on value here.
I can pretty much identify these players after a while, and their style definitely stands out though not as glaringly as a maniac who raises like mad preflop and right after the flop or a Party style calling station who's raise on the river means their inside straight draw hit or the underpair hit trips on the river. Still, I am having a hard time getting myself to push the extra raises in when ahead.
Below are a few hands from today illustrating this. In one I did do the 3 bet finally and it paid off (it was the final instance of this type of play today).
If these are just randomly bad players then so be it, though I am trying to figure out how this style of play develops so I can make the most from it. It is much more prominent on Poker Stars then party Poker. Thanks in advance
Hand 1:
PokerStars Game #3750497025: Hold'em Limit ($2/$4) - 2006/01/25 - 09:31:04 (ET)
Table 'Puppis' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Bitterend ($36 in chips)
Seat 2: Monteroy ($146 in chips)
Seat 4: megaard ($98 in chips)
Seat 6: thetalker ($206 in chips)
Seat 7: sham69r ($57.50 in chips)
Seat 8: BucRepeat ($99 in chips)
Seat 9: Renauldi ($107 in chips)
Seat 10: gavvy ($54 in chips)
gavvy: posts small blind $1
Bitterend: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [Qs Qh]
Monteroy: raises $2 to $4
megaard: folds
thetalker: folds
sham69r: calls $4
BucRepeat: folds
Renauldi: folds
gavvy: folds
Bitterend: folds
*** FLOP *** [Js 4d 2c]
Monteroy: bets $2
sham69r: calls $2
*** TURN *** [Js 4d 2c] [8d]
Monteroy: bets $4
sham69r: calls $4
*** RIVER *** [Js 4d 2c 8d] [4s]
Monteroy: bets $4
sham69r: raises $4 to $8
Monteroy: calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sham69r: shows [Qc Ad] (a pair of Fours)
Monteroy: shows [Qs Qh] (two pair, Queens and Fours)
Monteroy collected $38 from pot
Hand 2:
PokerStars Game #3753277049: Hold'em Limit ($2/$4) - 2006/01/25 - 16:43:25 (ET)
Table 'Tselina' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: BucRepeat ($188 in chips)
Seat 2: FourSuits20 ($36 in chips)
Seat 3: luckydonut ($46 in chips)
Seat 4: masterc6666 ($102 in chips)
Seat 5: Gregory06 ($143 in chips)
Seat 6: HoldenBeach ($50 in chips)
Seat 7: Monteroy ($216 in chips)
Seat 8: UnSuited ($56 in chips)
Seat 9: Langfuhr ($96 in chips)
Seat 10: PJK_522 ($68.50 in chips)
PJK_522: posts small blind $1
BucRepeat: posts big blind $2
HoldenBeach: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [9h 9d]
FourSuits20: folds
luckydonut: folds
masterc6666: folds
Gregory06: folds
HoldenBeach: checks
Monteroy: raises $2 to $4
UnSuited: folds
Langfuhr: folds
PJK_522: folds
BucRepeat: calls $2
HoldenBeach: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [Th Qh 6c]
BucRepeat: checks
HoldenBeach: checks
Monteroy: checks
*** TURN *** [Th Qh 6c] [7s]
BucRepeat: checks
HoldenBeach: checks
Monteroy: bets $4
BucRepeat: folds
HoldenBeach: calls $4
*** RIVER *** [Th Qh 6c 7s] [8h]
HoldenBeach: checks
Monteroy: bets $4
HoldenBeach: raises $4 to $8
Monteroy: calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HoldenBeach: shows [As Tc] (a pair of Tens)
Monteroy: shows [9h 9d] (a straight, Six to Ten)
Monteroy collected $36 from pot
Hand 3:
PokerStars Game #3753688294: Hold'em Limit ($2/$4) - 2006/01/25 - 17:26:17 (ET)
Table 'Tselina' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: BucRepeat ($162 in chips)
Seat 2: FourSuits20 ($94 in chips)
Seat 3: luckydonut ($63.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Tarrakan ($50.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Gregory06 ($196 in chips)
Seat 6: lonnie1 ($32 in chips)
Seat 7: Monteroy ($248 in chips)
Seat 9: DJMardy ($39.50 in chips)
Seat 10: PJK_522 ($66.50 in chips)
Monteroy: posts small blind $1
DJMardy said, "nh"
webb22: is sitting out
DJMardy: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [Ac Tc]
PJK_522: folds
PJK_522 said, "ty"
BucRepeat: folds
FourSuits20: folds
luckydonut: folds
Tarrakan: folds
Gregory06: folds
lonnie1: folds
Monteroy: raises $2 to $4
DJMardy: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [2c 9c 6h]
Monteroy: bets $2
DJMardy: calls $2
*** TURN *** [2c 9c 6h] [8s]
Monteroy: bets $4
DJMardy: calls $4
*** RIVER *** [2c 9c 6h 8s] [7d]
Monteroy: bets $4
DJMardy: raises $4 to $8
Monteroy: raises $4 to $12
DJMardy: calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Monteroy: shows [Ac Tc] (a straight, Six to Ten)
DJMardy: mucks hand (he had Ah 3s)
Monteroy collected $42 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $44 | Rake $2
Board [2c 9c 6h 8s 7d]
Seat 1: BucRepeat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: FourSuits20 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: luckydonut folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Tarrakan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Gregory06 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: lonnie1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Monteroy (small blind) showed [Ac Tc] and won ($42) with a straight, Six to Ten
Seat 9: DJMardy (big blind) mucked [3s Ah]
Comments
Not meant to be a curt reply or anything--- I really do think this is a common type of WPT FPS.
When a calling station gets to the river and has not improved, a natural gut reaction is to run a (possibly unsound) bluff as their "only chance" of winning.
Take note of such players. Folding against them on the river too often is an enourmous error.
I was recently up against such a player, and called him on the river with a winning unimproved King-high twice in the same session. The second time he typed "u shouldve folded".
ScottyZ
okerStars Game #3759600360: Hold'em Limit ($2/$4) - 2006/01/26 - 02:36:40 (ET)
Table 'Gordonia' Seat #10 is the button
Seat 1: WesMantooth0 ($42.50 in chips)
Seat 2: StormyNimbus ($80 in chips)
Seat 3: crdshk22 ($78 in chips)
Seat 4: Inuyasha17 ($118 in chips)
Seat 5: JuiceMan9998 ($89 in chips)
Seat 6: DVik ($126.50 in chips)
Seat 8: Zgaga ($52 in chips)
Seat 10: redacesfull ($284.50 in chips)
WesMantooth0: posts small blind $1
StormyNimbus: posts big blind $2
John Blade: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JuiceMan9998 [As Ac]
crdshk22: calls $2
Inuyasha17: folds
JuiceMan9998: raises $2 to $4
DVik: folds
Zgaga: folds
redacesfull: calls $4
WesMantooth0: folds
StormyNimbus: calls $2
crdshk22: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [9h Ad Jc]
StormyNimbus: checks
crdshk22: checks
JuiceMan9998: bets $2
Mr.Relly joins the table at seat #9
redacesfull: raises $2 to $4
StormyNimbus: calls $4
crdshk22: folds
JuiceMan9998: raises $2 to $6
redacesfull: calls $2
StormyNimbus: calls $2
*** TURN *** [9h Ad Jc] [6c]
StormyNimbus: checks
JuiceMan9998: bets $4
redacesfull: folds
StormyNimbus: calls $4
*** RIVER *** [9h Ad Jc 6c] [2c]
StormyNimbus: checks
JuiceMan9998: bets $4
StormyNimbus: folds
JuiceMan9998 collected $41 from pot
JuiceMan9998: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $43 | Rake $2
Board [9h Ad Jc 6c 2c]
Seat 1: WesMantooth0 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: StormyNimbus (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 3: crdshk22 folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Inuyasha17 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: JuiceMan9998 collected ($41)
Seat 6: DVik folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Zgaga folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: redacesfull (button) folded on the Turn