Stealing Blinds - Overrated!

stpboy

Ok so I have a theory that I would like to share (it's in the subject line). I've held this view for some time now and put it into practice in my online and my live play. You may think I'm crazy at first but really, I'm just a little drunk. Coherent drunk though.

I often see people protecting and stealing others blinds when it really isn't necessary. We'll be at the 2nd level with the average stack being 75x the Big Blind and someone will blatantly be stealing over and over again. In doing this, the player will often be risking a substantial amount of his stack just to win a very small portion of the chips on the table. On the other hand, which happens quite often, a player in the blind will defend when thinking that the other player is stealing. For me this all comes down to pride. Leave your pride at the door, or in your car or whatever it takes. How many times have you lost %'s of your stack, if not all your stack in a 'battle of the blinds' or while you thought you were defending your blind.

Now, I'm not saying you should just let everyone walk all over you. Or you should never take advantage of those weak tight players we all love. I'm just saying to be a little less wreckless when doing so. I also realize the importance of winning the blinds when they ARE worth it, when you have less than 15x the Big or when you have enough to bully the table. I can give you an example of what I've talked about and hopefully people can throw a few out there to either support or negate what I've said.

In the example below, the player lost 2400 TC of his 4055 because he must have thought I was stealing. I can understand that KJ is a decent hand in the Big but clearly by the turn he has to release this. Either release on the turn or raise me on the flop to see where I am and then release when I raise him all in.

PokerStars Game #3652002034: Tournament #17677039, Hold'em No Limit - Level V
(75/150) - 2006/01/15 - 23:46:29 (ET)
Table '17677039 18' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: bkerins (900 in chips)
Seat 2: Chando16 (1975 in chips)
Seat 3: stpboy77 (7360 in chips)
Seat 4: windabucks (2015 in chips)
Seat 5: Crock65 (4055 in chips)
Seat 6: tugcaptain05 (10037 in chips)
Seat 7: Bad122 (3210 in chips)
Seat 8: gillen033 (3483 in chips)
Seat 9: texking1 (2210 in chips)
windabucks: posts small blind 75
Crock65: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to stpboy77 [Qs Kc]
tugcaptain05: folds
Bad122: folds
gillen033: folds
texking1: folds
bkerins: folds
Chando16: folds
stpboy77: raises 300 to 450
windabucks: folds
Crock65: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [Kd Qc Ah]
Crock65: checks
stpboy77: bets 600
Crock65: calls 600
*** TURN *** [Kd Qc Ah] [7s]
Crock65: checks
stpboy77: bets 1050
Crock65: calls 1050
*** RIVER *** [Kd Qc Ah 7s] [6c]
Crock65: bets 450
stpboy77: calls 450
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Crock65: shows [Js Ks] (a pair of Kings)
stpboy77: shows [Qs Kc] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
stpboy77 collected 5175 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5175 | Rake 0
Board [Kd Qc Ah 7s 6c]
Seat 1: bkerins folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Chando16 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: stpboy77 (button) showed [Qs Kc] and won (5175) with two pair, Kings and
Queens
Seat 4: windabucks (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Crock65 (big blind) showed [Js Ks] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 6: tugcaptain05 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Bad122 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: gillen033 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: texking1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


stp

magithighs

Check out Dave/Greg's post and the responses. http://pokerforum.ca/forum/index.php?topic=7168.0 I think there's some interesting stuff there. The key is that the "stealer" can have a wide range of hands and actually believes those hands are worth a raise as opposed to a steal. As the hand progresses, that range really starts to get very narrow -- as your example illustrates.

I believe blind defense is really about odds -- as the blind is already in the pot and you're not defending anything. You're just getting good odds because the hand range of the stealer is extremely wide. However, if your defending with something like AK that wiffs' the board, then you may want to release if the betting pattern points to the stealer having a trash hand that hit trash on the flop.

I think I'll go have a glass of wine.

Cheers
Lou

westside8

stpboy wrote:

I often see people protecting and stealing others blinds when it really isn't necessary. We'll be at the 2nd level with the average stack being 75x the Big Blind and someone will blatantly be stealing over and over again. In doing this, the player will often be risking a substantial amount of his stack just to win a very small portion of the chips on the table.

I think this part of stp's post really caught my eye. In one hand we have Dave's post and the thread discussion how blind stealing is crucial to success in tournament play, while stp posted about stealing being overrated. I think your title maybe misleading in some ways, because you discussed about stealing blind and defending blind at a level where the stacks are all relatively deep compared to that of the blinds. This all comes down to risk and reward like you said. In early blind levels, where all players' stacks are relatively deep, the incentive to steal blinds is very minimal, so the risk is huge if you are caught, or if the player "defends" with his trash and catchs a hand. On the hand, when you are deep into the tournament, there is no doubt stealing is still important to your success in the tournament, unless you are catching cards left and right.

Cheers to drinking!

Irish31

I personally will steal blinds only when the level of blinds can guarantee me a decent risk/reward ratio.

I also like to have somewhat of an idea of the guy im ripping off. Usually people will let blinds go early because it's just a very small % of their stack out there. I do not steal blinds early since it's not really worth it. I will very actively push to steal as the blinds go up and I sense I can make a move. Half the time it's just applying logic, the other half seems to be, for me at least, intution.

I have made a few really good "non theft's" that would have resulted on my arse on the floor, if not for a voice inside my pan.. head.


Jay

funkymunky

Hmmm .. I don't think you should blatantly steal blinds every orbit, but I think it is an important aspect of tournament play, and I think people generally agree on it. I have trouble stealing with ANY two cards, which some people advocate.

As far as blind defense - I just don't protect garbage. If I get someone who clearly is pushing me, I will send the odd reraise back at them, that usually gets them to calm down. Of course, if I get something big - I will sometimes raise back at them, sometimes just smooth call.

So, I think I agree with you, in terms of not being reckless.

Unknown

Mr. Hellmuth agrees with you, you lush.

On another hand it was folded around to me and Phil in the blinds. I raised with Q9o. Phil was pretty shortstacked again, and had been talking earlier about how he doesn't advocate people going too crazy with defending their blinds. I think that's a bit of a tell, but I'm not sure. So, I raised, and Phil talked and talked about how he KNEW everyone was going to fold to us and he KNEW that when they did I'd raise his blind, etc. I replied that he shouldn't have said that he doesn't often defend his big blind. He looked at his cards, muttered something in disgust, and folded.

stpboy

all_aces wrote:

Mr. Hellmuth agrees with you, you lush.

On another hand it was folded around to me and Phil in the blinds.  I raised with Q9o.  Phil was pretty shortstacked again, and had been talking earlier about how he doesn't advocate people going too crazy with defending their blinds.  I think that's a bit of a tell, but I'm not sure.  So, I raised, and Phil talked and talked about how he KNEW everyone was going to fold to us and he KNEW that when they did I'd raise his blind, etc.  I replied that he shouldn't have said that he doesn't often defend his big blind.  He looked at his cards, muttered something in disgust, and folded.

Hilarious, I've never seen that before. Well, atleast I can't remember if I have. It's funny you know, I'm also an arrogant prick like him too.

stp

pkrfce9

I'm also an arrogant prick like him too

overrated as well...