SNG hand - Aggressive or stupid?
I really should just get the hand history but I'll post the details as best I can remember.
$20 + 2 Single table NL Holdem Tourney on Stars. Blinds at 100-200. 4 left.
UTG is microstack with about 290 in chips. Seems reasonable, understands it's push or fold at this stage and has been pushing fairly frequently with a stack in the red zone. Got crippled by Button previously.
Button is 2nd in chips with about 2000. Easily loosest player at the table, not particularly aggressive though. Makes some horrid preflop calls with zero post flop plan. I view this guy as easily the weakest player at the table.
SB has about 1200 in chips, easily tightest player at the table, I'd view him as an easy stealing candidate. Other than that seems fairly decent.
Hero is in BB with a monster stack of about 10k in chips (I think this is close to adding up to the 13.5k in chips). Stacks should be pretty close to totals given. As far as my table image, probably fairly tight, but have been stealing more frequently as of late, and managed to bust a few people on steal attempts where I got reraised and had to make a pot odds call.
The action:
UTG pushes. Button calls the 290. SB folds. There's already close to 900 in the pot and it's only another 90 to call and it certainly doesn't hurt me with the monster stack. Given 10:1 odds, I call with my 75o. I figure a clear chance to bust the short stack, and my post flop intentions are to simply check it down (co-operation play from Harrington) to bust the short stack.
Flop: 852 rainbow.
I check, Button bets the min (200) into a pot of 1000.
I'm not happy with this donkey bet.
Background: A few orbits earlier with 5 left (I think) the same micro stack pushed, got called by the button (loose player) and the BB (who is the SB in this hand) made a trivial pot odds call. Flop was AQQ and BB checked. Loose player made a min bet of 200 into the pot and BB folded. Loose player showed KTo which happened to be the same hand micro stack had and it was a chop. Basically the classic min bet into a dry side pot play.
Thus, I put the donkey on a weak bluff attempt here again, and figured I might be good. I tried to be the nice guy and check it down, but once he bet the min...well I sort of lose it. I push forcing him to risk bubbling (if he's going to make a jackass bet, I can do the same). Even if he calls, he only has about 1500 left, and I'm certainly not putting myself into bad chip position here if I lose.
Thoughts?
$20 + 2 Single table NL Holdem Tourney on Stars. Blinds at 100-200. 4 left.
UTG is microstack with about 290 in chips. Seems reasonable, understands it's push or fold at this stage and has been pushing fairly frequently with a stack in the red zone. Got crippled by Button previously.
Button is 2nd in chips with about 2000. Easily loosest player at the table, not particularly aggressive though. Makes some horrid preflop calls with zero post flop plan. I view this guy as easily the weakest player at the table.
SB has about 1200 in chips, easily tightest player at the table, I'd view him as an easy stealing candidate. Other than that seems fairly decent.
Hero is in BB with a monster stack of about 10k in chips (I think this is close to adding up to the 13.5k in chips). Stacks should be pretty close to totals given. As far as my table image, probably fairly tight, but have been stealing more frequently as of late, and managed to bust a few people on steal attempts where I got reraised and had to make a pot odds call.
The action:
UTG pushes. Button calls the 290. SB folds. There's already close to 900 in the pot and it's only another 90 to call and it certainly doesn't hurt me with the monster stack. Given 10:1 odds, I call with my 75o. I figure a clear chance to bust the short stack, and my post flop intentions are to simply check it down (co-operation play from Harrington) to bust the short stack.
Flop: 852 rainbow.
I check, Button bets the min (200) into a pot of 1000.
I'm not happy with this donkey bet.
Background: A few orbits earlier with 5 left (I think) the same micro stack pushed, got called by the button (loose player) and the BB (who is the SB in this hand) made a trivial pot odds call. Flop was AQQ and BB checked. Loose player made a min bet of 200 into the pot and BB folded. Loose player showed KTo which happened to be the same hand micro stack had and it was a chop. Basically the classic min bet into a dry side pot play.
Thus, I put the donkey on a weak bluff attempt here again, and figured I might be good. I tried to be the nice guy and check it down, but once he bet the min...well I sort of lose it. I push forcing him to risk bubbling (if he's going to make a jackass bet, I can do the same). Even if he calls, he only has about 1500 left, and I'm certainly not putting myself into bad chip position here if I lose.
Thoughts?
Comments
I am a little confused. When you say "I push" you put him all in, correct? I don't get it when you say "even if he calls he only has 1500 left". Do you mean if he folds? Or am I a dummy?
Anway, I think you pushed out of frustration, not really to make a good play. Having said that, I think it was a good play. Unless he's got a high pocket pair or trips he is folding. Even if you lose to the UTG, you still collect 200 back of the 290 you put in.
Sure you risk letting the UTG triple up+ and doubling the Button, but your stack can handle it and you have the confidence that these guys will lose to you anyway. Personally I would probably raise the BB here as well.
The button is clearly an idiot.
Ya, sorry for any confusion. I put him allin. I'm saying he only has 1500 left after his min bet, so his stack size isn't overly threatening to me (whereas mine should be to him). I wouldn't have pushed if he had a more sizeable stack. Similarly, if he had made a real bet like 800 (or pushed) saying he was committed to the pot and that he had a decent hand, I'd have likely folded.
I think I'd rather keep him in to be more certain of busting the micro stack as opposed to punishing him for being a moron. I might call him here but push if he tries it again on the turn.
He's either got a monster hand or he's an idiot. Either way you'll find out because he's forced to showdown. Use that information against him later.
Let's say I put him on 90% idiot, 10% monster (which is generous). I mean how many people flat call in that spot in the first place preflop when he's basically getting an auto call by the only stack that can hurt him? On the bubble to boot. I imagine he didn't even realize he'd managed to get himself into a pot with the chip leader until he was put allin. Maybe I underestimate my opponents too much when I see a few repeated bad plays...
If this guy is clueless, you'll get his chips with less risk. So preflop, 90 chips to try and make two pair or something fine.. But did you play that hand preflop to start calling bets to the river when you make a pair?
No. I think to some extent my view of the button has me blinded as to what I should do here. For starters, I don't necesarilly think he'll call the push without a huge hand here (after all he's risking bubbling with the micro stack already allin). I guess my problem is that I can see the button doing 2 very different things here with an OK but marginal hand (that's ahead of me).
1) He makes a sketchy call with a marginal holding and risks bubbling (since a bad player's calling range is wider).
2) He ignores the odds he's getting to call with something like TPNK and folds (since he risks bubbling).
At the time I think I thought option 2 was more likely than option 1 (if he had a hand) but now I'm not so sure...
As SirWatts said,
I strongly think he folds overcards here to the push though.
ONLY if your hand beats him but not the micro stack's. (If your hand beats the microstack's too, the moron gets 3rd.) If he is to assume you are pushing with a very strong hand, his risk of bubbling is much smaller unless the micro, too is playing a monster. Not as likely especially if he has top pair but possible, I suppose. So he might not be as worried here as you might think, assuming he has any neurons firing at all. Debatable, I agree.
The more I think about it, the more I don't mind your push here. What do you care who busts on the bubble as long as the chances of it being you are very small? You really only need to 'cooperate' when you are short-stacked as well. Clearly this is not the case for you. He is the one that needs to be getting to the river cheaply unless he has the best hand and it is vulnerable. I guess he could have a legit monster and be trying to build the pot but I don't know if you can give him credit for that.
Hopefully he might learn something from the whole exercise and stop messing around when you are in a pot. Your own risk of bubbling is minimal. The absolutely worst scenario is for the moron to call your bet with a better hand and have the micro stack triple up. Your bubble risk is still pretty small but would have increased significantly in that case.
Flop (Hypothetical action): First to act, I would have moved all-in. With this raggedy flop, chances are excellent that you have the best hand. Having an enormous chip lead, your priority is not to eliminate individual opponents, but to eliminate all of your opponents. You should give no thought whatsoever to the "check it down" play.
Moving all-in on the flop is for value. With a shorter stacked opponent already all-in, you hope your active opponent will make an error and call you with something like two high cards. (For example, if the active opponent realizes that even if he calls he will still get 3rd place if you end up winning the hand.) If the active opponent folds, you probably don't mind this so much either.
A much more compelling argument for moving all-in immediately is the following:
Checking to your poorly playing opponent gives him the green light to move all-in on something like a pair of deuces, Ace-high, or Random-Random offsuit. Don't create a scenario where he would likely call your bet with these kinds of hands, but you would toss in your own hand to his bet after you have gotten pretty much the best flop you could (realistically) have hoped for.
In general, do not assume that your opponent knows (and/or will use) correct dry side pot betting strategy. After this particular opponent's earlier KTo fiasco, assume that your opponent does not know what the phrase "dry side pot" means.
Flop (Actual action): After checking and your opponent making a small bet, and given your opponent's min-bet history, moving all-in is clear. As before, it is primarily for value, but not minding so much if he folds a 6-out draw.
IMO, it would be an error not to proceed on a flop of 852r as if you now probably have the best hand. As of the flop, and with the chip stack sizes as they are, your only concern should be how the rest of the pot will play out against the active player. Give him the chance to make a big mistake here. He may well call you with a monster like KTo.
ScottyZ