Can you have cheat sheets at the poker table?

Was watching "Showdown at the Sands" (by the way, this is on for two hours each night tonight, Thursday and Friday on Sportsnet).
The commentators were saying that one of the players was looking at an odds/probabilities sheet when deciding whether to call or not.

Also, on one of those WPT broadcasts, one of the players was reading a book at the table. (Probably not a poker book, but who knows?!)

Is this generally allowed in B&M casinos? For those of us with not-so-great memory skills that would be great!

Anybody tried this and was asked to stop?

Even seen guys with headphones on. If cheat sheets weren't allowed but Walkmans were, why not have a tape/CD on with poker tips/odds?

Comments

  • I'm not sure if cheat sheets are allowed or not. I would assume that they are, because people are allowed to take notes at the table, and who knows what else could be in that notebook? That being said, I've never seen it myself besides in tonight's Sands episode.

    Personally, I don't have a problem with it. I think it was the Cincinnati Kid that had the one guy who would always be working out probabilities with a pen and paper before his action, and I thought that was hilarious.

    On a somewhat related topic, wtf was up with Hellmuth at this tournament?!? Man, NOBODY plays good enough for him, apparently. He had a beef with the way his opposition played practically every hand he was in! It was getting embarrassing to watch, even for Phil...

    Regards,
    all_aces
  • So I can bring Sklansky&Malmuth to the table with me? I guess what may be more useful than straight probability and odds calclulation is strategy and tactics of how to play particular hands and flops....

    Re: Hellmuth whining; I loved it when he read TJ Cloutier's bluff correctly except that TJ forgot he had a spade and actually made a flush. And then he had a bad beat and got busted out of the tournament claiming there was no justice.... How about when he laid down his pair of queens on the river with the winning hand, got bluffed out. I think I've seen Hellmuth do this on other shows, and he's so proud of being able to lay down such strong hands, when in fact they were winners!
  • I often read books at the poker table, both poker related and non-poker related. I've never been asked to stop, but I have been asked to stop playing my gameboy and using my cell phone to send a text message.
  • newbie wrote:
    So I can bring Sklansky&Malmuth to the table with me? I guess what may be more useful than straight probability and odds calclulation is strategy and tactics of how to play particular hands and flops....

    Re: Hellmuth whining; I loved it when he read TJ Cloutier's bluff correctly except that TJ forgot he had a spade and actually made a flush. And then he had a bad beat and got busted out of the tournament claiming there was no justice.... How about when he laid down his pair of queens on the river with the winning hand, got bluffed out. I think I've seen Hellmuth do this on other shows, and he's so proud of being able to lay down such strong hands, when in fact they were winners!

    I am no big fan of Hellmuth's but IMO that was a GOOD fold. It was just a good bluff. The only way to avoid sometimes laying down the best hand is just to become a calling station and call with everything that has some remote chance of being good.

    Keith
  • That was funny when that Kolo kid played 74o and beat out Phil's ATs. Phil kept berating him in future hands. :lol:
  • :o didnt know it was on tonite...will try to catch it tomorrow

    mite have been the same episode shown about 2 weeks ago :shock:

    this is the 2003 Showdown at the Sands millions or something right? :shock:

    :D
  • :o didnt know it was on tonite...will try to catch it tomorrow

    mite have been the same episode shown about 2 weeks ago :shock:

    this is the 2003 Showdown at the Sands millions or something right? :shock:

    :D

    Yeah that was it. It was on Sportsnet or something.

    Keith
  • I often read books at the poker table, both poker related and non-poker related. I've never been asked to stop, but I have been asked to stop playing my gameboy and using my cell phone to send a text message.

    In Super System, Mike Caro talks about creating a loose and wild table image, to get the calling stations to call you even more than they usually would. He talks about cultivating this image:
    I carry around a fancy pocket notebook that is embossed "Mike Caro Playbook" on the front cover and "How to Bluff Constantly and Win" on the back.

    Now THAT would be a good book to read at the table....

    Keith
  • MiamiKeith wrote:
    :o didnt know it was on tonite...will try to catch it tomorrow

    mite have been the same episode shown about 2 weeks ago :shock:

    this is the 2003 Showdown at the Sands millions or something right? :shock:

    :D

    Yeah that was it. It was on Sportsnet or something.

    Keith

    yay 4 Sportsnet :D

    i only remember 3 peeps from that table Hellmuth, Kolo and Varkoyni's wife...cant remember her name... Ola or something? :?:

    anyhoo...will try to catch it tomorrow :D
  • " wrote:
    newbie wrote:

    I am no big fan of Hellmuth's but IMO that was a GOOD fold. It was just a good bluff. The only way to avoid sometimes laying down the best hand is just to become a calling station and call with everything that has some remote chance of being good.

    Keith

    I guess Hellmuth's legendary "reading" skills failed there.

    Also, who was it that said it is better to make a mistake that costs you a bet than a mistake tha costs you the pot? (This probably applies more to Limit Hold 'em than no limit since the bet sizes can be huge.)

    But compare Hellmuth folding Queens while holding the nuts, to the call he made against TJ Cloutier, losing to the rivered flush. In both cases, he thought he made the right decision, but really if the situation was reversed he would have won both pots, and maybe it was really a coinflip as to which way he proceeded.

    What do you take into account when deciding on whether to call a large bet on the river, going head to head? (not in any particular order)
    1) opponents betting pattern on the hand
    2) opponent's history(if known)
    3) size of the bet/cost to call
    4) cards on the table/possible hands (yours and your opponents)

    Would pot odds come into play? i.e. Hellmuth has a wired Queens; the flop/turn/river did not pair...would you calculate the probability of: the opponent having wired Kings or Aces, plus the probability of a small wired pair making trips, or a flop of two pairs, plus the probability of whatever cards necessary to make the straight/flush....

    Anyway, what is the minium hand you guys just cannot get away from? Trips?
  • The minimum hand I can't get away from is a flush. Although sometimes two pair is very hard to laydown...
  • It's tough to say you've got a minimum hand you will not fold in Holdem. (Except for the Uber-nuts Royal obviously.) It's going to be highly dependent on the board cards.

    Folding trips is usually indicated on a highly co-ordinated board (like a 4-flush and 4-straight). I'll easily fold straights and flushes if I'm facing a lot of heat with trips on board. I'd have to give serious thought to folding quads when the board contains a 4-straight flush, Ten to King. (As long as there was no bad beat jackpot) 8)

    ScottyZ
  • While I do find Helmuths complaining to be annoying I have to respect his ablilities as a player. As far as the QQ is concerned:
    it was a good laydown. (it is so easy to be an armchair playerand say he should have called once you know that Wolfe was bluffing. It is much different to be sitting there at the table trying to play the hands.)
    I believe Howard Lederer explained it the best. He said something like;
    Phill will fold hands in that spot because he is confident in his abilities to play with a medium to large stack. He didnt want to call when he just wasnt sure he had the best hand and leave himself with a small stack. Helmuth felt he could still compete without winning that pot but would be in trouble if he called and lost, so he folded.
  • I totally agree with this assessment. Phil has 9 WSOP bracelets and everyone of them is from Holdem. No stud, omaha, razz, etc. just Holdem.

    Basically this is Phil's view... "I'm a better player than you are... so why should I risk all my chips (or a large portion of them) on one hand where you may outdraw me? I will use my greater skill to outplay you over the course of many hands so that luck has less of a roll."

    Phil is dead on with this mind set and that is why he has so much success in tounament play. Anyone can win one tounament... but you can't cash in hundreds of them by taking unneccessary chances!
  • Obviously, you have to be able to lay down the best hand sometimes if you're going to be a successful poker player. And his accomplishments speak for themselves, so I have nothing but respect for him as a player. However, I stand by my original comments, which had nothing to do with his play:
    Man, NOBODY plays good enough for him, apparently. He had a beef with the way his opposition played practically every hand he was in! It was getting embarrassing to watch, even for Phil...

    Regards,
    all_aces
  • I guess Hellmuth's legendary "reading" skills failed there.

    I think that the problem was that he was read. He showed some weakness, making it a good bluffing opportunity.
    Also, who was it that said it is better to make a mistake that costs you a bet than a mistake tha costs you the pot? (This probably applies more to Limit Hold 'em than no limit since the bet sizes can be huge.)

    Not only does it apply "more" to limit hold'em... it doesn't apply AT ALL to no limit (unless you are in the rare situation of facing a tiny bet into a big pot). It applies even less in a tournament. (the whole "chips change value" thing)
    But compare Hellmuth folding Queens while holding the nuts, to the call he made against TJ Cloutier, losing to the rivered flush. In both cases, he thought he made the right decision, but really if the situation was reversed he would have won both pots, and maybe it was really a coinflip as to which way he proceeded.

    No. Against TJ he made a good read and was unlucky that TJ misread his hand. With the queens, he can really only beat a bluff, and if he doesn't have a read on the guy he is just guessing, and gambling too much of his stack.
    Would pot odds come into play? i.e. Hellmuth has a wired Queens; the flop/turn/river did not pair...would you calculate the probability of: the opponent having wired Kings or Aces, plus the probability of a small wired pair making trips, or a flop of two pairs, plus the probability of whatever cards necessary to make the straight/flush....

    Huh? There were two kings on the board. On the turn the board was KK9x. They were making the point that his opponent was drawing dead with JT because if he hit the Q for the straight it would give Phil the full house.
    Anyway, what is the minium hand you guys just cannot get away from? Trips?

    There is no minimum. Twice in my past 2 $5/$10 sessions I have folded a straight on the river to one bet when a third flush card came and my opponent VERY OBVIOUSLY had the flush.

    I once was playing $5/$10 and on the river the board was KK44x. Three people were in. The betting was capped. I actually thought that there might be 2 people with kings and one person with 44. At the end, two people flipped over kings, and one person (the guy who capped it actually) flipped over a 4. He said, "I couldn't fold, I had a tight myself". In other words, the guy was clueless.

    The moral: there IS no minumum hand that you can't fold. You fold when your opponent very obviously has you beat.

    Keith
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