BLUFFING DRAWING HANDS ON THE TURN

ConfusedONEConfusedONE
in Online Poker
You’re in late position on a flop that offers straight or flush draws, and it’s checked around to you. Should you bet and try to steal the pot? A lot of times, sure. But if your opponents are smart enough to put you on a steal, maybe skip betting the flop and save your naked bluff for the turn.

Here’s the thinking: If you bet the flop, you’ll get calls from all those draws because with two cards to come they’re probably getting adequate odds. Either that or they just can’t get away from their hands. In any case, drawing hands will stick around; they might even be planning to check-raise you, to slow you down on the turn.

However, if you check the flop and the turn is a brick, then your drawing foes will be much more willing to release their hands, since the odds against hitting and the price of calling have both gone up. Your turn bet could look unabashedly like "pure real estate," and yet still get the desired result of folds from players who aren’t getting the right price to chase.

I know, I know... you don’t want to give free cards on the flop. But remember, you’re not driving the best hand here, you’re driving a stone cold bluff. What you’re interested in is selling the bluff, and a judicious check on the flop can set you up for a convincing bet -- or a cheap getaway -- on the turn.

John Vorhaus



what ya think? :shock:

Comments

  • Adam**Adam**
    In a limit game, check, draw your free card and hope you hit. In Nolimit, Bet, but bet big enought to reprsent"real estate". This is a great move to fold out other with lesser hands than you. And a good bet will make them check to you on the turn, thne take the free card if you feel your behind.

    The constant here is the draw your on. Does it have multi ways to win(over cards to the straight,flush). Say you hit your over card, then you can bet the turn again...Or if on a bad flush draw(two under cards), take the free card on the turn, and see what the river brings. As most of the callers that called the flop bet will have min. a pair. Not to many good players will call a big bet flop for a draw.

    Limit is totally diferent, do you fell your bet on the flop will provide the same reaction(check to you on turn). If so, bet then take the free card you pay 1small bet on the flop to save the big bet on the turn(1/2 price card for argument) then hope to hit on river. Then you can maybe rack a few bets in that they fire at you on the river, thinking you have nothing.

    My thoughts only in no way does this represent any player in any game.
  • ScottyZScottyZ
    I agree that if you are on a draw in late position (say it's limit), then it's generally right to take off a free card. You might consider *raising* a draw in late position in certain situations in an attempt to take off a free river card; but generally, I think it's unwise to open the betting in late position with a draw, unless you think there's a significant chance of simply picking up the pot (e.g. if you think the checks before you were legitimate "I haven't got anything" checks from non-calling stations).

    Why do I like sometimes raising a draw, but I don't like opening the betting? In the latter case, you've already got a free turn card (well, at least if you're exactly last to act). This is also a nice example of keeping the pot small, so it will be easier for you to just fold on the turn if you miss.

    However, I think the original post is about whether or not you should attempt a stone cold *bluff* on the flop or wait for the turn when you have nothing (not even a draw) and the flop contains drawing threats.

    Also, it sounds like the original post was talking about limit.

    I don't see how opening for a big bet in late position with a draw in no-limit is good. Pure bluffing can be good. Betting for value can be good. Betting a draw as a semi-bluff in late position when you could have taken off a free card seems like "turning a good hand into 72o". Or, it's one of those "don't make a bet if a raise will make you sick" situations.

    Make a big bet in this kind of a spot with absolutely nothing, not when you're on a draw.

    ScottyZ
  • UnknownUnknown
    Make a big bet in this kind of a spot with absolutely nothing, not when you're on a draw.

    Totally agree. Or, if you're on a draw and miss, in no-limit you can win anyways if you have a fairly good idea about what your opponent might be holding.

    Example: Last night, $100 single-table sit-and-go at Stars. We're heads-up, and I'm leading. I pick up Js4s on the button at 400/800 and raise to 800. He calls.

    Flop: As 5d 8s. He bets 400, I call.

    Turn: 5c. He bets 800, I call.

    River: Ah. He bets 800, I move in, he folds.

    Normally I'd hate being such a calling station, but I planned to take it from him whether I hit the draw or not. That river card was perfect. I didn't put him on an ace even before the river card, because of the minimum bet the whole way. He was a true hand value player. I think he had a draw too--if he was feeling cheeky--or an 8.

    Regards,
    all_aces
  • ConfusedONEConfusedONE
    all_aces wrote:
    Make a big bet in this kind of a spot with absolutely nothing, not when you're on a draw.

    Totally agree. Or, if you're on a draw and miss, in no-limit you can win anyways if you have a fairly good idea about what your opponent might be holding.

    Example: Last night, $100 single-table sit-and-go at Stars. We're heads-up, and I'm leading. I pick up Js4s on the button at 400/800 and raise to 800. He calls.

    Flop: As 5d 8s. He bets 400, I call.

    Turn: 5c. He bets 800, I call.

    River: Ah. He bets 800, I move in, he folds.

    Normally I'd hate being such a calling station, but I planned to take it from him whether I hit the draw or not. That river card was perfect. I didn't put him on an ace even before the river card, because of the minimum bet the whole way. He was a true hand value player. I think he had a draw too--if he was feeling cheeky--or an 8.

    Regards,
    all_aces

    nice! :D all_aces :D
    do u remember his screename :?:
  • UnknownUnknown
    nice! all_aces
    do u remember his screename

    No, I'm sorry I don't. I think I got a bit off-topic in that last post lol.... but at least I bluffed a drawing hand on the river. Not quite the same as the turn though, and I was the one on a draw (although maybe not the only one).

    Regards,
    all_aces
  • ConfusedONEConfusedONE
    all_aces wrote:
    nice! all_aces
    do u remember his screename

    No, I'm sorry I don't. I think I got a bit off-topic in that last post lol.... but at least I bluffed a drawing hand on the river. Not quite the same as the turn though, and I was the one on a draw (although maybe not the only one).

    Regards,
    all_aces

    it's all good :lol:
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