AK in LLHE after a bunch of limpers
I just wanted to guage thoughts on how to play AKo on the button or cutoff in LLHE when you're faced with 4+ limpers coming in first. Raise or call?
I know I'm keeping this a little vague on the make-up of the players. (assume a typical loose LLHE table), but I don't want to taint the discussion with my thoughts... yet.
I know I'm keeping this a little vague on the make-up of the players. (assume a typical loose LLHE table), but I don't want to taint the discussion with my thoughts... yet.
Comments
Though, they are getting they're money's worth.
Mark
I'll explain my thinking here. I've been experimenting playing this two ways, raising and calling.
When I raise, I find it doesn't drive out anyone, (except occationally the SB), but ends up creating a big pot where I lose to a draw if an A or K hits. The big pot I've built has now made it very atrtactive for people with draws (even if it's just bottom pair) to continue betting. How is my pot equity compared to the implicit collusion that this situation creates?
When I call (treating AK like a drawing hand with that many people in the pot), often someone who acts before me will bet, which allows me to raise to eliminate more draws.
With one or two players limping before me, I think a raise is automatic. With 4+ getting in the pot, I've experimented with treating it like a drawing hand and have gotten better results.
Of course, I wholly admit that raising into that many people is a higher variance play, so I'd notice the swings more than if I play it like a draw, but I'm beginning to feel that, in this situation, I'm getting better results (winning more often and losing less when I get outdrawn) when I call.
I am worried that I'm letting the my habits get dictated by short term results, so I'm putting the question out there to see if this is a truely weak play.
Technically, isn't AK a drawing hand (albeit a very strong one)? If you don't hit the board, it's worthless, especially with a lot of players in the pot.
Good god, yes. Not raising AK preflop there is a mortal sin. How many times can you get 6 bets into the pot guaranteed when you have a pot equity monster? You certainly won't be able to make up for not raising this post-flop.  By the same argument, do you raise AA there, or limp to keep the pot small so that you can push people out on the flop? I think the answer is obvious...
"Avoid being overly aggressive in multiway pots with hands that play better shorthanded. If six people have already limped in before you, raising with hands like A-Q offsuit or A-J offsuit is counterproductive. With so many players in the pot, the chances of running the hand through to the river without improvement aren't good. You will need to flop at least a pair, and even that doesn't guarantee you will win the pot. The more players in the pot, the more likely it is that someone will make two pair, trips, a straight, a flush, or better. Furthermore, by raising pre-flop with A-Q offsuit or the like in multiway pots, you also induce your opponents to take long-shot draw against you. Of course, this doesn't mean you should fold these hands in multiway pots, but you should certainly proceed with caution. Limp in cheap, and hope to flop something solid. If the flop comes 10-6-7 to your A-Q, for example, you would be foolish to call any bets on the flop."
A couple of things. Firstly, just because Jennifer Harman says it doesn't necessarily mean it's the right way to play. Having said that, her limit game is extremely well respected. Now, notice she didn't use A-K offsuit as an example. So, perhaps she would raise with A-K. However, if you wouldn't raise A-Q for value, why would you raise A-K for value? If no one had raised, I think you'd have equal reason to believe you had the best hand with A-Q as you would A-K. At the very least, I think there is a reasonable argument for not raising with A-K in this spot.
Raising will increase your EV and increase your varaince.
Let look at a somewhat typical example.
Here are the hands with equity (a typical low-limit array of limpers):
A-K 28%
A-4s 10%
Q-T 24%
9-8s 25%
4-4 13%
A-K is the favourite. You ceratinly construct five-way action in which A-K is not the favourite, but A LOT of the time it will be. Raise. You have the best hand. And, you have position. Your raise may give you a free turn card, or whatever you are after.
I would raise in this situation.
If they are not suited, you still raise/reraise/cap. Why?
Your argument is basically that players calling after the flop if you hit will not be making mistakes to call for their longshot draws. After all, winning poker is about other players making mistakes (from the Fundamental Theorem of Poker, right?).
What you are ignoring, of course, is the grave mistakes they are making BEFORE THE FLOP! Remember, if you are properly rolled, you should be making +EV plays regardless of their variance. (in fact, you should be making 0EV plays if they increase your variance because widening your range of potential hands will make your regular +EV hands even more +EV, because you are harder to read and you show that you will gamble!). The drastic mistake these players are making by limping before the flop is enough to make you lots of money by raising immediately. If you play well postflop, you will not get caught drawing without odds or be able to fold with heavy action when the draws come in.
Remember, if there are 5 players in the pot and you have a greater than 1/5 chance of winning the pot, then why wouldn't you raise?
Big pairs and over cards are much stronger against a small field (preferabbly heads up) than a large field. Your goal with AA, KK, AK is to reduce the number of opponents.. this can be tough in a low limit game where people are willing to call a raise, 3 bet, cap just to see a flop. Despite this you must be aggressive and cut the field down as best you can. So the answer to your question: RAISE!
Great answer, bad reasoning. Read all the previous posts for why.
I have never made a study of AK, but A-A and K-K play VERY WELL into big fields. Generally, a BIG field with A-A will increase variance, but also EV. So, if you hate variance (tournament play) limit the field but if you are only EVE oriented in this hand (ring game) then welcome as many opponents as you can get in there.
ANSWER: The Whole Damn Table
QUESTION: What do you do when it comes unraised to you in any limit game holding AKo?
ANSWER: Raise For Value