Omaha Hi/Lo river bet?

stpboystpboy
in Online Poker
For all you Omaha Hi/Lo players out there, do you end up making a river bet here?  Check out my comment in the following hand....


PokerStars Game #3383255419: Tournament #16685641, Omaha Hi/Lo Limit - Level V
(150/300) - 2005/12/20 - 00:30:42 (ET)
Table '16685641 16' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: scorpio (2095 in chips)
Seat 2: gee1133 (4450 in chips)
Seat 3: hardpan22 (2042 in chips)
Seat 4: scorpionwm (2518 in chips)
Seat 5: Sudo_Gimp (3751 in chips)
Seat 6: RichKing94 (1127 in chips)
Seat 7: Sbrodack (1511 in chips)
Seat 8: stpboy77 (2947 in chips)
Seat 9: TomcatGT66 (2364 in chips)
TomcatGT66: posts small blind 75
scorpio: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to stpboy77 [9c 2s 3d 9s]
gee1133: folds
hardpan22: folds
scorpionwm: folds
Sudo_Gimp: folds
RichKing94: calls 150
Sbrodack: calls 150
stpboy77: calls 150
TomcatGT66: folds
scorpio: checks
*** FLOP *** [9h Ah 8s]
scorpio: checks
RichKing94: checks
Sbrodack: checks
stpboy77: bets 150
scorpio: folds
RichKing94: calls 150
Sbrodack: calls 150
*** TURN *** [9h Ah 8s] [Qs]
RichKing94: checks
Sbrodack: checks
stpboy77: bets 300
RichKing94: calls 300
Sbrodack: calls 300
*** RIVER *** [9h Ah 8s Qs] [Ad]
RichKing94: checks
Sbrodack: checks
stpboy77: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RichKing94: shows [5h 7d 2d 4h] (HI: a pair of Aces)
Sbrodack: shows [Kh 7s Ac Ks] (HI: three of a kind, Aces)
stpboy77: shows [9c 2s 3d 9s] (HI: a full house, Nines full of Aces)
stpboy77 collected 2025 from pot
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2025 | Rake 0
Board [9h Ah 8s Qs Ad]
Seat 1: scorpio (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: gee1133 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: hardpan22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: scorpionwm folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Sudo_Gimp folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: RichKing94 showed [5h 7d 2d 4h] and lost with HI: a pair of Aces
Seat 7: Sbrodack showed [Kh 7s Ac Ks] and lost with HI: three of a kind, Aces
Seat 8: stpboy77 (button) showed [9c 2s 3d 9s] and won (2025) with HI: a full
house, Nines full of Aces
Seat 9: TomcatGT66 (small blind) folded before Flop


Next Hand

PokerStars Game #3383266208: Tournament #16685641, Omaha Hi/Lo Limit - Level V
(150/300) - 2005/12/20 - 00:31:53 (ET)
Table '16685641 16' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: scorpio (1945 in chips)
Seat 2: gee1133 (4450 in chips)
Seat 3: hardpan22 (2042 in chips)
Seat 4: scorpionwm (2518 in chips)
Seat 5: Sudo_Gimp (3751 in chips)
Seat 6: RichKing94 (527 in chips)
Seat 7: Sbrodack (911 in chips)
Seat 8: stpboy77 (4372 in chips)
Seat 9: TomcatGT66 (2289 in chips)
scorpio: posts small blind 75
gee1133: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to stpboy77 [4d 2c Jc 3c]
hardpan22: folds
scorpionwm: calls 150
Sudo_Gimp: folds
RichKing94: folds
Sbrodack: raises 150 to 300
stpboy77 said, "i know, pull up my skirt"
stpboy77: folds
TomcatGT66: folds
scorpio: folds
gee1133: calls 150
scorpionwm: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [Th 8s 2d]
gee1133: checks
scorpionwm: bets 150
Sbrodack: raises 150 to 300
gee1133: folds
scorpionwm: calls 150
*** TURN *** [Th 8s 2d] [Kc]
cyber zen [observer] said, "we'll just leave the seat down for you"
scorpionwm: checks
Sbrodack: bets 300
scorpionwm: calls 300
*** RIVER *** [Th 8s 2d Kc] [Jh]
stpboy77 said, "lol"
scorpionwm: checks
Sbrodack: bets 11 and is all-in
scorpionwm: calls 11
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Sbrodack: shows [8h 9c 9d 7h] (HI: a straight, Seven to Jack)
scorpionwm: shows [8d 4h 3d As] (HI: a pair of Eights)
Sbrodack collected 2197 from pot
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***

Comments

  • SirWattsSirWatts
    I can't see why not, but I'm an O8 donk.
  • westside8westside8
    I would definitely make a bet there, but what do I know, I'm a :fish:
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    For hand 1, I'd probably want to bet/fold the river.

    Any raise coming from a Villian on that board with the two busted flush draws will have you beat..

    Oh and fold that crap preflop too. 2399 is a great hand to win a quarter of a pot with since it has little chance for hi.
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    For Hand 1

    I'd be tempted to call pre-flop, but may have folded... position would make a big difference for me there. So, that part's fine with me.

    I like the bet on the flop, as anyone with pocket aces really should be raising pre-flop, and you don't want to give people free draws to the flush or straight. With the potential straight on the turn I like the bet again for information, no re-raising, so it's not likely out there. On the River, there's the potential beating hands out there... any hand with AA, AQ, A9, or A8, not to mention QQ. I think you can only eliminated AA, as they would have been pre-flop betting, and A9, as they would have bet back with top 2 pair. So still some hands out there to beat you.

    Contrary to BBC Z's comments, I'd rather check here instead of bet and fold to any pressure back. I think this is one of those "only hand that calls will be the one that beats you", so you're not making any more money on this hand, throw more money at it? Well played.
  • Hork42Hork42
    Fold preflop. No protection for your low cards and mid pairs are money-losers.

    Given that you played the hand, I'd still bet out on that scary river.

    Also, it's a big enough pot that I think someone will call you down, especially holding the trip aces.
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    I think this is one of those "only hand that calls will be the one that beats you", so you're not making any more money on this hand, throw more money at it

    Trip aces that didn't boat up will call you. The Ace high full house will raise you on the river. Thus, the bet/fold line.
  • g2g2
    DrTyore wrote:
    On the River, there's the potential beating hands out there... any hand with AA, AQ, A9, or A8, not to mention QQ. I think you can only eliminated AA...
    Great check on the river IMO. Since you've been leading the whole hand and getting 2 flat callers, if either one of them are holding any of the hands that beat you they will likely try to check-raise you on the river.

    /g2
  • stpboystpboy
    Interesting that some think it's a great check, others not so much. I felt like a 'baby in a crib' after checking that flop and seeing the one guy with trip aces. I'm sure I would have gotten atleast one more call from him. A hand later in the night, I flopped 2nd highest set (10's) and bet out flop and turn to just get called by the higher set (aces). I checked the river, he bet and I called of course to lose the pot. I just can't trust anything in Omaha Hi/Lo.

    Thanks for the input on the starting hand though, I think I'm really struggling with my starting selection and betting in this game. I'm very passive. I was in the top 20 for most of the tournament and ended up finishing 40th or so out of 260 when I lost a tonne with AA35 (3suited) when I had to fold on a scary turn card.

    stp
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    BBC Z wrote:
    I think this is one of those "only hand that calls will be the one that beats you", so you're not making any more money on this hand, throw more money at it

    Trip aces that didn't boat up will call you. The Ace high full house will raise you on the river. Thus, the bet/fold line.

    But the problem is that Trip aces that DID boat up will raise you, or someone will put the pressure back on you.

    I don't think I would bet 300 bucks into a pot of 2025 when the only person to act will be a raiser, where I would then have to fold to a 2925 pot for 300. Or, since you're getting 10:1 on your full house, you've almost got to call. So basically you're going from checking down to win 2025, betting 300 to win 2025, or risking 600 to win 2925... I take the free money. Risking 600 bucks for a profit of 300 doesn't seem to make sense to me... nine times out of then if you don't have the nuts, someone does.

    Mark
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    Risking 600 bucks for a profit of 300 doesn't seem to make sense to me...

    Can you read? Bet / ***FOLD***

    When you get raised, you LOSE 97% of the time. So you don't call that. But by checking you lose the value out of the less hands (ie trips) that will just call.
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    BBC Z wrote:
    Risking 600 bucks for a profit of 300 doesn't seem to make sense to me...

    Can you read? Bet / ***FOLD***

    When you get raised, you LOSE 97% of the time. So you don't call that. But by checking you lose the value out of the less hands (ie trips) that will just call.

    Oh..

    So what you're saying we should do is throw an extra bet at a pot that is only going to get raised (where we fold) or no callers (where we make the same amount anyways). So we either bet an extra 300 bucks to completely remove any chance at winning, or bet 300 bucks at a pot that we would have won anyways.

    Good plan

    Mark

    P.S. (Let me cover the last option, we bet 300 bucks and get one donk caller - I don't think the risk / rewards is worth 300 bucks...) Oh, and to be sensitive to those who may have been offended.. I will give a pictorial for those who can't read... my bretheren.


    :9c :9d :2d :3d (stpboy)

    +

    FLOP
    :ad :ah :8s :9h :Qs

    =

    :D

    BUT

    :9c :9d :2d :3d (stpboy)

    +

    FLOP
    :ad :ah :8s :9h :Qs

    VS.

    :ac :as OR :as :8d OR :as :8c OR :as :8h OR :ac :8d OR :ac8c OR :ac :8h OR :ac :9s OR :ac :qc OR :ac :qd OR :ac :qh OR :as :qc OR :as :qd OR :as :qc

    =

    :'(
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    I could write in the universe of hands that have an ACE and don't boat up but it's far larger than your 13 hands.
    So what you're saying we should do is throw an extra bet at a pot that is only going to get raised (where we fold) or no callers (where we make the same amount anyways).

    Why would there be no callers? You don't think TJ for the straight can call? Or Trip aces? Or the 8's underboat?
    or bet 300 bucks at a pot that we would have won anyways.

    We call those value bets. You make them because they are profitable.

    Why do you seem so keen on having opponents capable of bluff raising the river?
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    BBC Z wrote:


    Why do you seem so keen on having opponents capable of bluff raising the river?

    It's just the fact that it's Omaha hi/lo, people play anything, and by your logic, it would just take one donk to say "I think my aces are good" or "I think he missed his flush" or "oops, I hit the wrong button" and bang.. you just lost a pot that doubled your stack, and gave you chip lead".

    I think that a raise is fine here also, if you're willing to make the call on a re-raise.. bet/fold is simply throwing money away.  Also, at that point, it's $300 for a pot of $3000!  However, I personally would check here instead, as stpboy did.

    Mark
  • Hork42Hork42
    DrTyore wrote:
    It's just the fact that it's Omaha hi/lo, people play anything, and by your logic, it would just take one donk to say "I think my aces are good" or "I think he missed his flush" or "oops, I hit the wrong button" and band.. you just lost a pot that doubled your stack, and gave you chip lead".

    Against weak players, I'll bet and then call a raise. The pot is too big to fold. Chances you are still good are too high to check. A weak player with Ax might think he just hit his out and think he's good. JT might have been waiting for flush draws to die and will call with his straight.

    Tyore, your post makes my eyes bleed.
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    Well,

    Let's chalk it up to difference of play then.. I personally am pretty happy with a hand that nearly doubles my stack, and I don't think I'd risk the $300 bet for a (best case scenario) extra 600.

    Mark

    Hork42: BTW, thanks for replying in a logical format, and not trying to flame me... I still have my asbestos suit on, but still. :)
  • Hork42Hork42
    DrTyore wrote:

    I still have my asbestos suit on, but still. :)

    Oh, in that case... YOU SMELL LIKE STRAWBERRY SHORTCAKE!!
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    I personally am pretty happy with a hand that nearly doubles my stack

    We may disagree with the line, but you can't ever pass up +EV situations with that kind of thinking.
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    BBC Z wrote:
    I personally am pretty happy with a hand that nearly doubles my stack

    We may disagree with the line, but you can't ever pass up +EV situations with that kind of thinking.

    Considering this is a tournament, it is definately possible to give up on +EV situations, when you're risking essentially 2300 on a gain of 600?

    Mark
  • Hork42Hork42
    DrTyore wrote:

    Considering this is a tournament, it is definately possible to give up on +EV situations, when you're risking essentially 2300 on a gain of 600?

    Eww.... precisely why i hate the bet/fold line... But I think you're missing out on too much EV by checking as well, making the bet/call line my preference.
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    Hork42 wrote:
    DrTyore wrote:

    Considering this is a tournament, it is definately possible to give up on +EV situations, when you're risking essentially 2300 on a gain of 600?

    Eww.... precisely why i hate the bet/fold line...   But I think you're missing out on too much EV by checking as well, making the bet/call line my preference.

    Which is what I said, i would probably check here, but I have no problem with the bet either, as long as you call a re-raise with your boat when you're getting 10:1 on your money!!

    Mark
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    So apparantly, the dominant hand in OM8 is 9923... this one's for stpboy.




    Omaha Hi/Low $0.25-$0.25 PL (real money), hand #1,622,692,085
    Table Roodepoort, 23 Dec 2005 03:34 AM
    View Previous hand for this table.
    Seat 1: pokerbrian77 ($51.35 in chips)
    Seat 2: hansdotcom ($6.15 in chips)
    Seat 3: Friedpuppy ($70.75 in chips)
    Seat 5: brettcpdx ($22.40 in chips)
    Seat 6: Blerg [9D,2S,3S,9C] ($41.10 in chips)
    Seat 7: xTwinkz2051x ($23.40 in chips)
    Seat 9: fleegirl ($44.60 in chips)
    Seat 10: cowboy7-27 ($13.75 in chips)
    ANTES/BLINDS
    Friedpuppy posts blind ($0.25), brettcpdx posts blind ($0.25).

    PRE-FLOP
    Blerg calls $0.25, xTwinkz2051x calls $0.25, fleegirl calls $0.25, cowboy7-27 calls $0.25, pokerbrian77 folds, hansdotcom calls $0.25, Friedpuppy checks, brettcpdx checks.

    FLOP [board cards 9S,2C,QC ]
    Friedpuppy checks, brettcpdx checks, Blerg bets $1.75, xTwinkz2051x folds, fleegirl folds, cowboy7-27 calls $1.75, hansdotcom calls $1.75, Friedpuppy folds, brettcpdx folds.

    TURN [board cards 9S,2C,QC,8S ]
    Blerg bets $5, cowboy7-27 bets $11.75 and is all-in, hansdotcom calls $4.15 and is all-in, Blerg calls $6.75.

    RIVER [board cards 9S,2C,QC,8S,4S ]


    SHOWDOWN
    cowboy7-27 shows [ JH,JD,10C,KC ]
    hansdotcom shows [ QD,8D,6C,5H ]
    Blerg shows [ 9D,2S,3S,9C ]
    Blerg wins high $15.20, hansdotcom wins low $9.45, Blerg wins high $9.50.
    SUMMARY
    Dealer: hansdotcom
    Pot: $34.65, (including rake: $0.50)
    pokerbrian77, loses $0
    hansdotcom, bets $6.15, collects $9.45, net $3.30
    Friedpuppy, loses $0.25
    brettcpdx, loses $0.25
    Blerg, bets $13.75, collects $24.70, net $10.95
    xTwinkz2051x, loses $0.25
    fleegirl, loses $0.25
    cowboy7-27, loses $13.75



    Notice the river bet / call? That one's for you BBC... ;)

    Mark
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