A NL hand for review (30 seconds to act)
I'm playing a $1/2 NL live cash game the other day at Kelly's Place (Shameless plug for West Side Poker Club) and the following hand occured. I'd like to know your thoughts.
Anyway, the hand in question.
4 players limp to the flop. I'll list the 3 that matter.
Player A 7d9d ($140)
Player B AJo ($60)
Player C A9o ($57)
Flop Ac 8d 6d
Player B bets $8
Player C raises to $16
Player A is last to act and calls $16
Player B re-raises all in for another $44
Player C calls the all in
Player A ??????????
Is this an automatic call from Player A for most of you? Play it as if you were at the table, figuring everything out in your head and having a limited amount of time. Give me your honest answer within 30 seconds....
stp
Anyway, the hand in question.
4 players limp to the flop. I'll list the 3 that matter.
Player A 7d9d ($140)
Player B AJo ($60)
Player C A9o ($57)
Flop Ac 8d 6d
Player B bets $8
Player C raises to $16
Player A is last to act and calls $16
Player B re-raises all in for another $44
Player C calls the all in
Player A ??????????
Is this an automatic call from Player A for most of you? Play it as if you were at the table, figuring everything out in your head and having a limited amount of time. Give me your honest answer within 30 seconds....
stp
Comments
Next time, don't tell us their hands. Just give us a range you would expect them to be playing.
I was at the table for the Big suck out with AJo....
I think it was a very WEAK play for the str/flush draw not to push all in on the flop after the first raise and reraise from the second player.
The situation outside the cards were;
1; rock
2; new and aggressive (had bet the first three or four hands, layed down a huge pair and lost in showdown twice)
3; over aggressive
I think the best play here was for the rock to push, so that the good agressive has to call two reraises. He would have trapped the over aggressive player, and made the stronger player fold.
I had thought about not putting the suits in the OP but wanted to really post what Player A was likely thinking. It would have been easy for him to put both B and C on a medium-big Ace, possibly even two pair. I was surprised at his call here, I suppose if it was a tournament things might have been different. Tyson said after the hand that I (AJo) was the underdog even though I was ahead. I wasn't sure about that until I figured out that he had 16 outs x2 (PlayerC had a diamond). Anyway the river came duece duece not diamonds and I took down the pot.
Player C btw, I was surprised at his hand also.....he usually plays TWO THREE!
stp
Dude, what has happened to you? I thought you knew all about outs and odds and stuff.. these last few posts you've made make me think you are either running really badly or maybe you should take a break from poker for awhile...
I don't remember disagreeing with you so much in advice from previous threads..
stp
The latter is far more important than the former.
Board: 8d 6d Ah
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 34.6622 % 32.00% 02.66% { AcJh }
Hand 2: 56.0354 % 55.04% 01.00% { 9d7d }
Hand 3: 09.3023 % 05.65% 03.65% { As9c }
I still think the mistake is that the best hand just called... what do you do if it was me and I push all in on the flop.
All the money decisions were made on the flop
stp
I think is the biggest leak in my game. I would be afraid of you folding. Hence when I have the best I get small value bets on the end, rather then getting fully paid off.
It was brought up a couple of times where I had made a great hand and just doubled the end bet rather then going all in.
Thanks Shannon, this comment just made things so clear for me.
Can you explain that BBZ?
I dont understand what you mean
If you did push, as player B it would cost $52 into a pot of $76, with a player behind to act. Â I'd probably fold. Â Same thing for player C. Â I probably wouldn't push as A, but I couldn't call a push with the other hands. Â But I'm way too tight!
Interesting discussion though, and I really need to figure this "equity" thing out (is that in the Lee Jones book?)
your hand is even money at this point not 2-1
By pushing you get more money at even if you get called, however you also have the added value that the other person folds.
I see the value in them folding, but I guess I wouldn't want to risk even more on a coin-flip. Or is that the point (if you're 50/50 with a 5% chance they fold, you jump to 55/45)?
Three players all-in the pot. Your hand has a 45% chance to win, but another opponent has a 50% chance to win. You are not the favourite, but your all-in is long term profitable due to your pot equity edge. You put in 33% of the money on a 45% shot.
Being the direct favourite is nice, but far from necessary to be a winning player.
Now, the interesting question in this hand imo is the first flop decision. Do we raise to try to get as much money in as possible with a huge equity edge but possibly scaring off one of our customers or do we call try to keep them both around? I think a raise is still better since there's enough dead money in the pot that being heads up will still be awesome. If the stacks were deeper it would be imperative to raise now otherwise someone pushing all-in o nthe tuern might force you to fold your monster draw while you may not get paid off when you hit, so get it in asap while you have an edge or take what's in the middle if no one calls. The call isn't that bad in this particular situatiuon because no one can push you off on the turn anyways since their stacks are so short and you'll be getting better than 2:1 on a 2:1 shot, but I still want to get it in on the flop so they can't get away if we hit our flush.
Another thing to consider is one of the players holding the Ad (since we are only told they have AJo and A9o)
So pushing the flop could increase the chance of getting out a player with a redraw if you happen to hit your flush on the turn.
If you just said pot odds it would have made senseÂ
.... its the big words that make you awesome
But what do you call it when you put in all your chips, on a unraised pot when reraised and you have another caller in front of you? And you win with the behind hand... suckout
I think the push here by AJ off was a mistake, the call and no push from the str/flush draw was a mistake. And a call after the raise of the reraise with A9 off was a mistake.
AJ - has to be fearful of two pair when flop bet is raised and called. I prefer a call, and see what happens on the turn.
A9 - makes some sense to raise the bet as he has a 'good' ace but really has to fold against a reraise and has to be VERY cautious on the turn
79 - has a dream situation and should get in all his chips, by just calling the odds on the turn will keep another higher flush draw around but by pushing is going to keep a set, two pair or top pair in
Am I missing something?
4 players limp to the flop. I'll list the 3 that matter.
I am not sure how many player there are total, but these hands are limping? I see this A LOT in low-blind NL games. Very odd. 9-7s OK. That's an implied odds hand looking to get in cheap and then land a big one. A-Jo doesn't want to limp -- where will you be post flop? Hard to play unless you have defined your hand, not to mention the simple goal of getting it in with the best of it. A-9o limping in? Ugh ... reverse implied odds comes to mind.
Instant call.
You fear a bigger flush draw from C (at least I do) but not enough to take me off what may well be the favourite...
OK, now I look at other answers.
9-7s got "dream come true" as it turned out.
Should 9-7S have moved in for the third raise? I don't think so. You have a raise and a re-raise. It could be nice to get the initial raiser to stay in the pot if you have as big an edge as you suspect you do. If you don't (if one of them has a bigger flush draw) then you want to get away cheap. Raising may have the effect of folding the initial raiser which you do not want.