folding big pockets pre-flop
My friend and I got into a discussion one day in which he thinks I play way too tight. Basically, he believes that there is absolutely no reason to fold queens or jacks pre-flop in no limit. I think the only hands that you cannot fold pre-flop are aces and kings. Although it is very rare in which a situation occurs in which you should fold them (i have folded queens only 3 or 4 times, two of which I know were good folds, the others I never saw), it can happen, and a good player needs to be willing to get away from almost any hand if the situation requires it. I have never been able to get away from kings preflop, although it seems like sometimes I may have had enough information to do so. Any opinions?
Comments
Me (UTG) - Raise (can't remember, but let's say blinds were 200-400, I raised about 1200).
1 MP Call (Mmm.. respect)
Re-raise all in for another 800 on top of my 1200
Me: Re-re-raise all in for about 7.5k (isolation to get rid of MP player)
MP: Folds
Me: "Well, nice Aces Gow"
I was right.
Had I been in a different situation (i.e. all in wasn't so little), I probably think i coulda folded.
Mark
stp
If you can't find some scenarios where you should dump QQ or JJ preflop, you have a leak in your game.
Seriously though, I've laid down QQ's pre-flop a few times, once due to a read (rare) but a couple times due to the situation (really early and really late in tournaments) - no regrets. Â Never folded KK's though, and don't think I ever would except possibly in the same "special situation" where folding A's makes sense - doubt my read's will ever get THAT good (compared to the misreads).
As Shannon said, don't let people take advantage of you, however if you really are that tight, use it to your advantage. Â A few months ago (when I really was an uber-rock), I pulled off a massive bluff which helped me ultimately win the tourney. Â Just be careful picking your spots, and don't do it too often
On the other hand, smooth calling here almost guarantees the other player comes along. KK holds up well in this case I expect. Smooth call might be good if you can get the other player to put more chips in with the worst hand post flop.
I agree actually in retrospect.
Though this was some months ago, and I think I'd play it differently now. But it was one of the first few times I KNEW what he had.
Mark
I look down after about an hour and a half of rags to see JJ. Game is 1/2 NL.
With about 4 limpers in front of me I limp too, knowing that some one is going to take a stab or make a value bet. Sure enough the button, or SB ( cant remember which) raises it up to $12. One other $12 is called.
With about $35 in the pot I raise it up $60.
I made this decision with the following information. The first raise I believed to be a good attempt to grab what was already about a $12 pot, with a pot sized bet against all limpers. The other $12 call could have a variety of hands due to the pot odds - didnt need a premium hand to call - and also there was no reraise.
I figure with a limp bet than $50 reraise to a $12 raise and one call would represent AA or KK. This was effective for the original raiser who laid down his AK, although with difficulty.
I did get the next call with a reraise to all-in me. About $35 additional.
I made the call, a bad call. However I did so for the following reason.
First and foremost, I was tired, and felt that i already had a lot of money in the pot.
Second, his reraise was not automatic. He had showed the two players beside him his cards, and they had the tough fold look, but does he have Aces? I figured AA would immediately reraise all-in. KK would be an easy call.
For these two reasons I made the call.
And QQ was turned over.
I hit my J on the turn
This was a tough beat for the other guy. However, I also learned something about big pairs pre-flop.
I figured I was put on AA or KK - and both other players also put me on that hand - he was quite happy to see my JJ.
So with a big pair like QQ the following considerations must be made.
First, a strong move like that makes you automatically think AA.
So with QQ you are calling against AA and KK which have you dominated. Against AK you are only 50-50.
But it doesnt stop there. If you think you could already be beat by that you are behind. Plus you are against any two other cards that could beat you.
That being said, you are dominated from the top in that position, but also have the risk exposure of random cards hitting.
I do not know if i could have made that call. QQ is a big hand, but there are hands that have you dominated. Even if someone was trying to steal with an A2s or something of that sort has you beat with a single A.
It comes down to one of the most important rules in poker - it is much easier to make a raise than call one. Considering the pot and betting patterns a large bet with JJ was a relatively easy raise for me. I wanted represent AA or KK and push everyone out of the pot.
Calling the same bet with QQ is much more difficult.
Its all too often that QQ and KK become garbage cards post-flop with a single flopped Ace.
Just some banter to consider.
Since when does AK dominate QQ?
Why is this a bad call? By my count, you're getting enough odds on the $35 you have to put in to call. Even if he has Aces, they are still only 4-1 to win.
Nice catch, BTW
This is meant more for tournament rather than cash game. An all-in in a cash game really means nothing when you can reload. But in a tournament situation - this means you are bust. So laying down QQ, when you put someone else on a big hand shouldnt be a tough decision.
I now make sure that an alarm bell sounds in my head anytime there is a raise and a re-raise. In this spot, fold A LOT of hands unless you are against tricky opponents in which case, move in with QQ and JJ.