Slow-playing trips

beanie42beanie42
in Online Poker
I played in the $2 rebuy+add-on tourney last night at Paradise.  Surprisingly, I did pretty well, and was chip lead (or top 5) most of the way through 200 players (almost 900 started) till final table.  When we got down to final 4, I was chip lead and we had a very long battle.  We played about 40 min at which point I had 50% of chips.  Unfortunately, on 3 of next 5 hands, I got in a big favorite (better than 3 to 1) and each time lost to runner-runner.  I stole a few blinds and got just above short-stack (800K to 700k), when I finally busted out the fourth player.  We had ended up playing 50 minutes at 4-players, and 10 hands into 3-handed, the following hand occurred.

First, chip leader has about 60% of chips, while I'm almost tied with the other player.  The table has been SUPER-TIGHT.  For last hour, 70% of hands are won with an uncalled pre-flop bet, around 25% won with flop bet, and very few showdowns.  Opponents are also showing cards frequently to show "I'm not stealing", and they seem to be playing good cards (I never showed except at showdowns).  My reads are that AgNO3 is very tight/solid - only plays 2 big cards, pairs, and suited connectors (not even gappers).  He also has shown a few big laydowns (good ones), so he seems to know what he's doing.  KSpades is fairly loose pre-flop, and stealing a bunch.  However, if played back against, he usually folds or has something.  Post-flop, KSpades seems fairly solid.

Game #1148157464 - Tournament Riptide $5K - 40,000/80,000 No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2005/12/12-06:13:10.0 (CST)
Table "Riptide $5K 22" (MTT) -- Seat 8 is the button
Seat  1: AgNO3  (3,580,988 in chips)
Seat  7: Kspades  (1,097,392 in chips)
Seat  8: Beanie42  (1,118,620 in chips)
Kspades : Ante (5,000)
Beanie42: Ante (5,000)
AgNO3   : Ante (5,000)
AgNO3   : Post Small Blind (40,000)
Kspades : Post Big Blind (80,000)
Dealing...
Dealt to Beanie42 [ 2c ]
Dealt to Beanie42 [ 2d ]
Beanie42: Call (80,000)
Devin would be proud :) . I'll limp in, but I expect to throw this hand away
AgNO3   : Call (40,000)
Kspades : Check
*** FLOP *** : [ 8s 2h 5c ]
AgNO3   : Check
Kspades : Check
Beautiful flop for me.  Due to how tight the table is, I expect any raise to cause a fold.  I decide to slow-play till the turn, since I'd like this to end soon since we're mainly trading blinds.
Beanie42: Check
*** TURN *** : [ 8s 2h 5c ] [ 7h ]
AgNO3   : Bet (290,000)
Kspades : Call (290,000)
They both have something, but what?  I'm thinking that AgNO3 has 78s or 67s since that fits his profile and would've hit the board, but I'm still ahead. KSpades has "something", but could be anything (overpair, overcards, flush draw, straight, straight draw).

Action?

Results below in white

Beanie42: Raise (1,000,000)
AgNO3   : Call (710,000)
Kspades : Call (710,000)
*** RIVER *** : [ 8s 2h 5c 7h ] [ Th ]
AgNO3   : Check
Kspades : Check
Beanie42: Check
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 3,255,000 | Board: [ 8s  2h  5c  7h  Th ]
AgNO3 lost 1,085,000 (showed hand) [ 7d  8d ]  (two pair, eights and sevens)
Kspades bet 1,085,000, collected 3,255,000, net +2,170,000 (showed hand) [ 6d  4h ]  (a straight, four to eight)
Beanie42 lost 1,085,000   [ 2c  2d ]  (three of a kind, twos)

Comments

  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    Probably due to the "Oooh look at this hand" phenomenon, but I kinda saw that outcomecoming.

    One "tip" that I've heard, which is actually more of a philosophy, is "Take the money when you can". If you've hit the best hand, bet at it now. It's better to win a little than lose a lot. Now this doesn't mean I never sandbag either, but it's not something I do very often. This is likely due to my table image and general plan though, raises from me get shall we say "less than average" respect, so slowplaying for me is only betting about the pot. :)

    Another theory is "Never sandbag when one card can beat you", which is what happens. However, if you're always looking for that one card that beats you, you'll never move on a hand (which can be good if you're playing Omaha Hi/Lo!).

    As you and I have talked before Beanie.. my style isn't your style. 90% of the time, you're making a LOT of money on this hand, while I'm making a moderate amount. Hindsight is 20/20, so a bet on the flop would probably have gotten the one dude to fold, while you could probably have taken the 2-pairs guy for a bit since he hit top pair.

    Meh.. my 2 cents.

    Mark
  • beanie42beanie42
    DrTyore wrote:
    Probably due to the "Oooh look at this hand" phenomenon, but I kinda saw that outcomecoming.
    Yeah, sounds similiar to a hand you schooled me with a few months ago :rage:
    DrTyore wrote:
    One "tip" that I've heard, which is actually more of a philosophy, is "Take the money when you can". If you've hit the best hand, bet at it now. It's better to win a little than lose a lot.
    Normally I do this unless there is very little that can kill my hand. In this specific case, I violated my normal playing style due to the table conditions - I wanted to win a lot (since things were going SO SLOW). Probably a learning experience since I've never been in an MTT that lasted more than 3 hours (this hand was over 5 hrs in). I guess that's my main question - is this sort of adaption to the slow table warranted, or should I have played my normal game? Also, is this type of play normal at the end of an MTT (1 hour to go from 4 to 3 players)? I guess I also wasn't used to so much play at the end - the blinds were capped with about 70 BB in play (compared to the 20-30 I'm used to in home games).
  • Big EBig E
    Chalk it up to experience Trevor, I think you played it poorly. You allowed them to draw out on you. It sucks but you got greedy and you got burned.

    I like the pre-flop limp but I think you need to fire a pot sized bet out on that flop. With the antes and blinds being so high you want to take it down righ then and there.

    I think the 78 may have stayed in to pay your trips off large...but I can't see the 46 staying in to a large bet.
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    I like the pre-flop limp but I think you need to fire a pot sized bet out on that flop. With the antes and blinds being so high you want to take it down righ then and there.

    That is insanely bad advice. Hero's got a monster hand on a board with no draws. A pot sized bet will win, but considering the pot is so small, why not give away the free card and hope a villian catches something and try to win the tournament right there?

    Of course, this is all dependant on your image. If you check a lot of flops and then fold turns, the slowplay is awesome. If you are aggressive and make a lot of continuation bets, then you have to play the hand fast.
    "Never sandbag when one card can beat you"

    Thats a pretty worthless heurestic as theres almost always a single card in the deck that can give your opponent the win.
    I guess I also wasn't used to so much play at the end - the blinds were capped with about 70 BB in play (compared to the 20-30 I'm used to in home games).

    Propose a deal.
  • SirWattsSirWatts
    I would raise it up with the quackers on the button. After limping I think you played the hand fine, though I'd be kind of scared on the turn when it goes potsized bet then call but I don't see how you could do anything but push there. I might throw out a small bet on the flop like I'm trying to steal the pot cheaply and at least make gutshots pay but it doesn't sound like these guys are the type to try put a move on you with nothing so just checking is probably best. A bit unlucky, but those arethe chances you take.
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    BBC Z wrote:
    "Never sandbag when one card can beat you"

    Thats a pretty worthless heurestic as theres almost always a single card in the deck that can give your opponent the win.

    I both agree and disagree.  

     As I said in the original post, you can't just always be paranoid about the one card out there that'll beat you, however....  when playing you have to look at things like making opponents pay to make their hands.  if a flop was something like

    :2c :kc :qd

    You do NOT want to let someone draw at their straight or flush for free.  Now in this case Beanie posted, the gutshot IS rare... but I would be concerned about the fact that there is NO clue as to what the BB has since he was able to just check it.  I think letting him check again is a bad idea.

    Perhaps the fact that there was 2 other players as well, then THAT scares me more... slowplaying against one other opponent is safer I would say.  A pot-bet takes away the odds for the gut shot, and then the top pair guy may call and hit the two pair, meaning he's going broke.

    Mark
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    slowplaying against one other opponent is safer I would say.

    We're not looking for safety, we're looking to win the tournament. If you win the blinds + limps with a set on a rainbow flop, you likely misplayed it.
    if a flop was something like ..

    Well yeah, change the flop significantly and obviously the recommend play changes too.

    As an aside, this isn't a situation where one card beats you. It's a situation where up to 9 do.
    A pot-bet takes away the odds for the gut shot

    ..and the backdoor flush draw and the pocket pair set draw and the raggy two pair draw... Draws we WANT in the pot.
  • beanie42beanie42
    BBC Z wrote:
    I guess I also wasn't used to so much play at the end - the blinds were capped with about 70 BB in play (compared to the 20-30 I'm used to in home games).
    Propose a deal.
    I was actually so surprised to make it so far, the thought never crossed my mind. In practice, how do you do this (does the site have tools for this, or is it a non-binding verbal agreement)?
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    I was actually so surprised to make it so far, the thought never crossed my mind. In practice, how do you do this (does the site have tools for this, or is it a non-binding verbal agreement)?

    Well basically, if you are playing at pokerstars, send an email to support saying that you want to deal.. Support will jump in the chat and adjust the payouts based on the agreement.

    Of course, the first thing to do is ask your opponents if they're interested in talking about a deal.

    If you play at party, it's built into the software but only the chipleader can initiate it.

    If you play at some other site, you'll have to see if they allow it. They may not (or they're support is so bad they'd never make it anyway).

    never accept a verbal deal where player X will transfer Y dollars to your account if you let him win. Too many scammers on the internet. If the deal doesn't involve support, don't do it.
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    Hrm...

    Maybe it's just me... but I'm okay with taking the blinds and limping.. I'm patient. Yes.. there isn't nine outs like on a flush draw, but as Big_E has pointed out, there is a possible straight draw (Open ended and gutshot), and I'd rather shut them down or make them pay.

    By checking you give them infinite odds to draw to the hand that beats you, so at a flop of 5-2-8 rainbow, and NO information on the BB, he could very likely have 3-4 or 6-7 for the open ended, or, as we saw, 4-6 for the gutshot. Betting defines their hands, and you avoid things like the 1 million chip loss on the turn. I bet and get a caller, I tread warily on the 7 turn.

    Mark
  • Big EBig E
    BBC Z wrote:
    That is insanely bad advice. Hero's got a monster hand on a board with no draws. A pot sized bet will win, but considering the pot is so small, why not give away the free card and hope a villian catches something and try to win the tournament right there?

    Yes...I agree...for some reason I read this
    Beanie42: Check
    *** TURN *** : [ 8s 2h 5c ] [ 7h ]

    and thought Beanie checked it? Must be my dyslexia? Reading through the hand history again I see he did fire at it on the turn...which was supposed to be my point.


    but that said...I think 'insanely' bad advice is a little much......firing on the flop would not have been a bad move but it likely was not the best move either.
  • beanie42beanie42
    So, to summarize, I got greedy and tried to win it all right there, which may or may not have been the right play. However, by the time I made my play, I was no longer ahead, tough result. "I take my chances, I take my lumps".

    Thanks for all the great feedback. The past week has been like a major crash course for me (with online) :) and I appreciate everyone's help!
  • ScoobyDScoobyD
    I don't hate the slow play too much post-flop, but personally having 22 on the button at a described tight table I'm raising this like 90% of the time. Picking up the blinds is a good result and quite likely to succeed. Open-limping for close to 10% of your chips in a 3 handed pot just doesn't seem to have the implied odds I'd want to consider it. If either of the blinds raise, I'd assume you're folding. Since you've characterized them as fairly tight, even when you do catch your set, you may not get any action with it.
  • Hork42Hork42
    You're up against the blinds in an unraised pot, so they could have anything.

    That said, this board is not a scary one at all. I would probably put in a small probe bet on the flop. Makes it look like a steal attempt since you are last to act. A last position check is suspicious. If they have anything at all, you are giving them a good price to call while still building the pot. If they have nothing, then you are unlikely to win much more on this hand anyway.

    You don't want them to fold with a pot-sized bet. Keep them in, but sweeten the pot.
  • the_mainthe_main
    I would've raised pre-flop and try to take blinds and antes with the dueces. Chances are the board wont hit you so you'd like to take it down pre-flop if possible. This would've also worked out great if you got a call. You could fire out on this uncoordinated flop and there is good chnace someone will play back at you (esp. with top pair).

    But you limped, which is not horrible but gives the BB a nice stealing oppoutunity. Anyhow, with the limp, BBC Z has pretty much summed up my opinions on the play, so I have nothing more to add.
  • stpboystpboy
    Just to show that I'm not playing favourites, this hand is pretty similar to Chugs "limp with AA" hand post. Trevor, as it's been said, because of what you didn't do preflop you lost it on the flop. You didn't gather the necessary information from your opponents and didn't knock out the raggety hands with a raise.

    I don't mind your play other then that...I would have put out a 3/4 pot sized bet on the flop but again I would have raised preflop also.

    It happens, you slow played and you lost. If you would have played this hand more straight forward do you think you would have been able to beat them just with solid-straight-forward play? I find people try to get to cute sometimes....

    stp
  • WaterLooserWaterLooser
    This was in DN's poker blog today ....
    That got me up to about 25,000 when I made it 1500 to go with 33. I got two callers and the flop came Kd-4c-3d. The blind checked, I checked, and the rookie checked.

    The turn was the 8c, the blind checked, I bet 2400, the rookie called, and the blind called.

    The river was the 7c. Now I absolutely knew that the blind was drawing to clubs, so when he checked I checked behind him. The rookie checked also, and the blind turned over Q-10 of clubs. Sure I could have won the pot on the flop, but I was looking to get some action for my set.
  • beanie42beanie42
    WaterLooser wrote:
    This was in DN's poker blog today ....
    That got me up to about 25,000 when I made it 1500 to go with 33. I got two callers and the flop came Kd-4c-3d. The blind checked, I checked, and the rookie checked.

    The turn was the 8c, the blind checked, I bet 2400, the rookie called, and the blind called.

    The river was the 7c. Now I absolutely knew that the blind was drawing to clubs, so when he checked I checked behind him. The rookie checked also, and the blind turned over Q-10 of clubs. Sure I could have won the pot on the flop, but I was looking to get some action for my set.
    So he made the same play, EXCEPT he got away from it when he wasn't beat. Wait - Adam, are you implying I'm not as good as Negreanu? :D
  • WaterLooserWaterLooser
    Trevor,
    No direct comment on your play, just that this is another example of slow-playing trips and getting out-drawn. It can be dangerous, you have to decide on the situation and if letting people draw to a hand that will increase the pot is a good idea or if you are ready to just take the pot right now.

    Here is an example of where it worked, and Lou called me out for being a sandbagger (sorry again Sean).
    Game #1147475382 - Tournament Lucky Lou - 50/100 No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2005/12/11-21:16:05.1 (CST)
    Table "Lucky Lou 4" (MTT) -- Seat 3 is the button
    Seat 2: IpooOnYu (880 in chips)
    Seat 3: westside888 (2,310 in chips)
    Seat 4: RedDeer40 (4,795 in chips)
    Seat 6: Ibyte (1,630 in chips)
    Seat 7: Wolffhound (2,790 in chips)
    Seat 8: _morty_ (635 in chips)
    Seat 10: GIGITUP8 (980 in chips)
    RedDeer40 said, "ty"
    RedDeer40: Post Small Blind (50)
    Ibyte : Post Big Blind (100)
    Dealt to RedDeer40 [ As ]
    Dealt to RedDeer40 [ Js ]
    Wolffhound: Fold
    _morty_ : Call (100)
    GIGITUP8: Fold
    IpooOnYu: Fold
    westside888: Fold
    RedDeer40: Call (50)
    Ibyte : Check
    *** FLOP *** : [ 5c Jc Jd ]
    RedDeer40: Check
    Ibyte : Check
    _morty_ : Bet (535)
    RedDeer40: Call (535)
    Ibyte : Fold
    RedDeer40 said, "sorry sean"
    Ibyte said, "u mean for not raising all in with a set!"
    *** TURN *** : [ 5c Jc Jd ] [ Kd ]
    *** RIVER *** : [ 5c Jc Jd Kd ] [ 7c ]
    _morty_ said, "its ok"
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Pot: 1,370 | Board: [ 5c Jc Jd Kd 7c ]
    IpooOnYu didn't bet (folded)
    westside888 didn't bet (folded)
    RedDeer40 bet 635, collected 1,370, net +735 (showed hand) [ As Js ] (three of a kind, jacks)
    Ibyte lost 100 (folded)
    Wolffhound didn't bet (folded)
    _morty_ lost 635 (showed hand) [ Td Qc ] (a pair of jacks)
    GIGITUP8 didn't bet (folded)
  • mortymorty
    WaterLooser wrote:
    Trevor,
    No direct comment on your play, just that this is another example of slow-playing trips and getting out-drawn. It can be dangerous, you have to decide on the situation and if letting people draw to a hand that will increase the pot is a good idea or if you are ready to just take the pot right now.

    Here is an example of where it worked, and Lou called me out for being a sandbagger (sorry again Sean).
    Game #1147475382 - Tournament Lucky Lou - 50/100 No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2005/12/11-21:16:05.1 (CST)
    Table "Lucky Lou 4" (MTT) -- Seat 3 is the button
    Seat 2: IpooOnYu (880 in chips)
    Seat 3: westside888 (2,310 in chips)
    Seat 4: RedDeer40 (4,795 in chips)
    Seat 6: Ibyte (1,630 in chips)
    Seat 7: Wolffhound (2,790 in chips)
    Seat 8: _morty_ (635 in chips)
    Seat 10: GIGITUP8 (980 in chips)
    RedDeer40 said, "ty"
    RedDeer40: Post Small Blind (50)
    Ibyte : Post Big Blind (100)
    Dealt to RedDeer40 [ As ]
    Dealt to RedDeer40 [ Js ]
    Wolffhound: Fold
    _morty_ : Call (100)
    GIGITUP8: Fold
    IpooOnYu: Fold
    westside888: Fold
    RedDeer40: Call (50)
    Ibyte : Check
    *** FLOP *** : [ 5c Jc Jd ]
    RedDeer40: Check
    Ibyte : Check
    _morty_ : Bet (535)
    RedDeer40: Call (535)
    Ibyte : Fold
    RedDeer40 said, "sorry sean"
    Ibyte said, "u mean for not raising all in with a set!"
    *** TURN *** : [ 5c Jc Jd ] [ Kd ]
    *** RIVER *** : [ 5c Jc Jd Kd ] [ 7c ]
    _morty_ said, "its ok"
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Pot: 1,370 | Board: [ 5c Jc Jd Kd 7c ]
    IpooOnYu didn't bet (folded)
    westside888 didn't bet (folded)
    RedDeer40 bet 635, collected 1,370, net +735 (showed hand) [ As Js ] (three of a kind, jacks)
    Ibyte lost 100 (folded)
    Wolffhound didn't bet (folded)
    _morty_ lost 635 (showed hand) [ Td Qc ] (a pair of jacks)
    GIGITUP8 didn't bet (folded)

    Don't be sorry, I walked right into it. And believe it when I say I wouldn't hesitate to do the same to you. :)

    I was desperate at this point, and QT was the best hand I'd seen in two rounds. I figured I had two moves, all in pre-flop or all in on the flop. I figured that you'd give me credit for two biggish cards at least, and it was likely that you'd missed the flop too. I figured I'd be good if I hit a Q or T. Or that sweet, sweet backdoor flush that g2's always betting on.
  • g2g2
    morty wrote:
    Or that sweet, sweet backdoor flush that g2's always betting on.
    What's this!?!?!?! Are you talking about lunch poker?

    /g2
  • mortymorty
    g2 wrote:
    morty wrote:
    Or that sweet, sweet backdoor flush that g2's always betting on.
    What's this!?!?!?! Are you talking about lunch poker?

    /g2

    I kid. You have rationalized some pretty slim draws in recent memory though.

    Are you saying that you don't take lunch poker seriously!?
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9
    Back to the OP...

    22 is pretty hard to play post-flop unless you hit it. And even sometime when you hit it... I would have raised it pre-flop. Chances are you take it down there but if you get called, you have position post-flop.

    Given that you limped, I don't mind the way you played it post-flop. You are looking to double up now rather than just take the blinds. Taking that route means there's a chance you give someone the cards to bust you. So be it.

    When you see a pot-sized bet on the turn and a call, it's got to be a bit scary. But there are so many hands that might do this, you have to close your eyes and grit your teeth.
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