Hand analysis with a twist

the_main

Im not going to show you my hole cards.

PokerStars Game #3272900235: Tournament #16200015, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2005/12/08 - 01:07:46 (ET)
Table '16200015 19' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: djenkins1515 (1160 in chips)
Seat 2: Chris_08015 (3045 in chips)
Seat 3: hoilmand (940 in chips)
Seat 4: mmustang82 (1100 in chips)
Seat 5: A23CLA (1765 in chips)
Seat 6: jmc2536 (2405 in chips)
Seat 7: croc8 (6865 in chips)
Seat 8: TSSabol (1510 in chips)
Seat 9: the_main (1270 in chips)
croc8: posts small blind 25
TSSabol: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to the_main [x x]
the_main: calls 50 UTG limp
djenkins1515: calls 50
Chris_08015: raises 150 to 200
hoilmand: folds
mmustang82: folds
A23CLA: folds
jmc2536: folds
croc8: folds
TSSabol: folds
the_main: raises 250 to 450
djenkins1515: calls 400
Chris_08015: calls 250
*** FLOP *** [6h Ad 7s]
the_main: bets 820 and is all-in

djenkins1515: calls 710 and is all-in
Chris_08015: folds
*** TURN *** [6h Ad 7s] [6s]
*** RIVER *** [6h Ad 7s 6s] [2d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***

the_main: shows [x x]
djenkins1515: shows [9d Qd] (a pair of Sixes - Queen kicker)

What do you think my range here?

westside8

Limp raise. hmmmm. I'm guessing an ace, but honestly, I really don't know for sure.

SirWatts

I can't imagine you're bluffing especially with that small reraise preflop, so I'm giving you a big pair. The push on the flop is confusing because that flop just sucks for KK/QQ and you might slowplay a set of aces. Gotta say top set or an "ah what the hell" KK unless it's a rebuy tourney which given the Q-high call it just might be.

pkrfce9

Normally I would expect you to be playing a big pair this way. Limp early with a small re-raise to build the pot.

Given the fact that he'd call you with such garbage, I'd guess you were playing a wide range of hands. Or he is an idiot.

Then you went all-in on the flop with no draws on the board. I assume you knew he'd call you. So is he an idiot? Did you have AA or AK?

twosnaces

The limp reraise screams of Aces. Or maybe a steal attempt. But I would find it hard to believe that you would put your tournament life on the line at that point with a steal. I'll go with my initial read of Aces but maybe even AK.

On another note: Who calls a raise and a re-raise with Q9s?

adammc

AA, AKs. That's it. Pushing in at 2 people on an ace high board with anything other than these two hands takes one hell of a read.

Off chance of 6's or 7's, but limp raising 9 handed with them seems a tad ridiculous, but I don't know how good you are so? Maybe that.

Anyways, AA or AKs, or the read of your life.

ScottyZ

{AA}

ScottyZ

SOS

The answer is in the limp/ reraise
no other hand than AA but then the push on the flop is perplexing?
hmmm...you must have known there was an auto caller out there AA is still my guess

ryanhealy

Hard to put a player on 4-5 or 8-9 with that much preflop raising, so there isnt much reason to fear a straight draw here. With no flush draw, pushing all in with trip Aces might be sacrificing value in a lot of situations, so I dont think you have AA.

Also, with two players calling to the flop, theres no reason to push a big pair below aces right away, as either of them could be holding an ace. So I dont think youre holding anything from 88-KK.

Its possible you reraised preflop with 77 or 66, but unlikely. An outside chance.

My call is AK. Limped from UTG, saw action and decided to reraise a hand thats strong enough to warrant it. Maybe AQ also, but not as likely as AK.

the_main

I was on a complete bluff, but I'm glad everyone here believed me. How a guy with Q high didn't is another story..
I had 8-9, and reasons to make this play.

Twice I had seen chris limp, once with AK, once with AQ. Otherwise he had been playing insanely tight, so I had reason to put him a a big pair JJ-AA.
Djenkins had seen most every flop, but was laying down to most raises.

I really thought I could get chris to lay his hand down with this raise preflop considering his tightness, and could certainly get him to go away with an A on the flop.

I've been playing a little more crazy like this lately, and its allowed me to go deeper into tourny's with a larger stack, or obv. busting out early (which I'd rather do than squeek into the money).
I was ready to concede this pot, until I got such a dreamy flop. My only concern was jenkins having an A, but without a strong kicker it is still a tough call.

Tigerscott

You Limped re raised 89?

did I read that right?

brutal

SirWatts

I understand wanting to get a big stack early, but not playing badly to try to get one. you hee-hawed it up big time on this one John

the_main

How can it be so bad if everyone who replied put me on a huge hand?


I looked at this as a spot where I could out play someone regardless of my cards.

ryanhealy

the_main wrote:

Twice I had seen chris limp, once with AK, once with AQ. Otherwise he had been playing insanely tight, so I had reason to put him a a big pair JJ-AA.
Djenkins had seen most every flop, but was laying down to most raises.

I really thought I could get chris to lay his hand down with this raise preflop considering his tightness, and could certainly get him to go away with an A on the flop.

Im a little confused on this one. You say this guy was brutally tight and you had reason to put him on AQ, AK, JJ-AA, yet you think you can get him to lay the hand down preflop with a reraise, or on the flop if an A hits.

Maybe Im not getting it but this seems completely illogical to me. Why would he lay these hands down to a reraise preflop, with the exception of maybe AQ or JJ, and then why assume he would fold to an A on the flop, if you have reason to believe he might have AQ, AK or AA?

SirWatts

We have some idea how you play and most of us are decent players so we "know" what your LRR means. These guys might think you're an idiot or they just might be idiots themselves and not even understand what you're representing and call with Q-high. If you're going to make a move like this i think you're better off reraising big preflop to try to take it down right there before someone hits something on you. Also bluffing someone who you put on a monster doesn't seem too smart. Most tight players still can't make big laydowns.

harthgosh

This is an interesting weapon in the poker arsenal: the limp reraise utg AA bluff.
However,
With such shallow chips, and im assuming not a heck of a lot of money on the line, its not a very profitable one.

Against a field of rocks with deep stacks, I have seen this play work, but rarely. Kudos though for having the balls to try something creative. Im a bit shocked by the Q hi guys read. He must of had you pegged on crap to make that call (unless he had somewhere to go).

wader

I agree with HG. I teyed this play out just recently but we where depper and the villan had been doing a lot of raising preflop.


*********** # 162 **************
> PokerStars Game #2990919356: Tournament #14113646, Hold'em No Limit -
> Level IX (300/600) - 2005/11/06 - 18:57:07 (ET)
> Table '14113646 53' Seat #7 is the button
> Seat 1: tylerbills (5850 in chips)
> Seat 2: jomamusfat (30609 in chips)
> Seat 3: Bumpasaurus (16090 in chips)
> Seat 4: scottu74 (7905 in chips)
> Seat 5: L.O.G.I.C.O (7865 in chips)
> Seat 6: zach65 (7599 in chips)
> Seat 7: wader (12145 in chips)
> Seat 8: jimmym (11863 in chips)
> Seat 9: KidKGB (13262 in chips)
> tylerbills: posts the ante 50
> jomamusfat: posts the ante 50
> Bumpasaurus: posts the ante 50
> scottu74: posts the ante 50
> L.O.G.I.C.O: posts the ante 50
> zach65: posts the ante 50
> wader: posts the ante 50
> jimmym: posts the ante 50
> KidKGB: posts the ante 50
> jimmym: posts small blind 300
> KidKGB: posts big blind 600
> *** HOLE CARDS ***
> Dealt to wader [5d 7d]
> tylerbills: folds
> jomamusfat: folds
> Bumpasaurus: raises 1200 to 1800
> scottu74: folds
> L.O.G.I.C.O: folds
> zach65: calls 1800
> jomamusfat said, "give me some respect"
> scottu74 said, "so what you want us to think you have the nuts everytime?"
> wader: raises 3000 to 4800
> jomamusfat said, "i had the nuts the last 3 times"
> scottu74 said, "i see why you have that pic now"
> jomamusfat said, "AA, and flo comes ak2 isnt that the nuts"
> jimmym: folds
> KidKGB: folds
> Bumpasaurus: folds
> jomamusfat said, "turn6 still nutd"
> jomamusfat said, "nuts"
> zach65: folds
> wader collected 6750 from pot
> wader: doesn't show hand
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Total pot 6750 | Rake 0
> Seat 1: tylerbills folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 2: jomamusfat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 3: Bumpasaurus folded before Flop
> Seat 4: scottu74 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 5: L.O.G.I.C.O folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 6: zach65 folded before Flop
> Seat 7: wader (button) collected (6750)
> Seat 8: jimmym (small blind) folded before Flop
> Seat 9: KidKGB (big blind) folded before Flop

the_main

ryanhealy wrote:

the_main wrote:

Twice I had seen chris limp, once with AK, once with AQ.  Otherwise he had been playing insanely tight, so I had reason to put him a a big pair JJ-AA.
Djenkins had seen most every flop, but was laying down to most raises.

I really thought I could get chris to lay his hand down with this raise preflop considering his tightness, and could certainly get him to go away with an A on the flop. 

Im a little confused on this one. You say this guy was brutally tight and you had reason to put him on AQ, AK, JJ-AA, yet you think you can get him to lay the hand down preflop with a reraise, or on the flop if an A hits.

Maybe Im not getting it but this seems completely illogical to me. Why would he lay these hands down to a reraise preflop, with the exception of maybe AQ or JJ, and then why assume he would fold to an A on the flop, if you have reason to believe he might have AQ, AK or AA?

Because I had seen him limp with big aces, I was sure he was on a big pair (jj-aa) - which I think is pretty obvious that he was after this action. I was trying to represent a big ace or AA, and was hoping he'd catch on. The ace on the flop was my dream card against this player, but I was only worried djenking having a weak ace (again, i didn't expect him to come along).

But sirwatts is right, if I had really hit the flop that hard, why would I move in on the flop? I guess I panicked, not expecting 2 callers - saw a decent draw and enoguh fold equity to push. But looking back it seems like a scared play. Altough, don't think I could've bet any other amount into this pot once I got two callers.

I was also palying a fairly tight game, so the Q high call had no reason to put me on crap. (unless he read the all-in as a semi-bluf, but still, i think you need at least a peice of the flop to put your tourny on the line) I assume he figured he had so much invested that this was an inflection point for him .

This is the first time I've tried this play, and honestly, I will do it again. HG is correct though, this play seems like it'd be much more profitable with deeper stacks and deeper into the game. I can't wait to find this spot and post it again.

pkrfce9

I wonder if this move works better as a CR? I think that would be more convincing that you had a big hand. Of course, the stacks would have to be deeper to give everyone enough chips to have it play out this way.

SirWatts

Like everything there's a time and place for this move. Early on when there are still players willing to call off their chips with Q-high obviously wasn't it. Also getting a lot of chips in and hoping an overcard to his big pair flops sounds like a bad plan. Hopefully next time you try this the situation is right.

the_main

pkrfce9 wrote:

I wonder if this move works better as a CR? I think that would be more convincing that you had a big hand. Of course, the stacks would have to be deeper to give everyone enough chips to have it play out this way.

A check-raise here would be optimal, but anyone who bets at this pot is going to be pretty much commited. Another reason why this wasn't the smartest move given the chip stacks.

And I think while the overcard versus this tiight player was optimal, it was not the only flop which I could see him laying down a big pair. But then again, with that much of my stack invested, I'd call down with somehting like QQ (as an overpair) with almost any flop. He could've also laid it down preflop (with something like TT,JJ or even QQ), which would've been awesome.

Tigerscott

Moves don't work on Fish... :fish:

They don't know when there winning or behind half the time so how will they pick up on complex plays...

ryanhealy

Im still a bit confused on why its a good idea to pull a bluff on a player youve placed on JJ-AA, AK or AQ.

Like I said, unless hes got the bottom end of that range, i.e. JJ or AQ, its going to be a VERY hard lay down for him to make.

It seems to me this is the kind of play youd prefer to make on someone with lower preflop standards who you know is capable of laying down a hand. For instance someone who would raise with pocket 9s or 10s, A10, or the like, since the reraise by you could represent a LOT of hands that have him beat and hes able to fold.

Reraise bluffing a guy who is tight and only plays big hands just doesnt click with me. If hes got QQ or AK there are only two hands that dominate him and he has to be pretty sure youve got one of then, even this is a decision that requires some thought. If hes got KK, then for him to be able to lay that down would be very unlikely and if he has AA then you have pretty much a 0% chance of him folding, unless hes got a twitch and accidentally hits the fold button.

Against the range of hands you put this guy on, I just dont see how this play is a good idea. Sure youre trying to represent Aces, but thats one hand for him to put you on, and even if he does decide you have Aces, most players still cant part with their KK there. Also youve openly said that the range of hands you put him on included him having Aces himself! Just seems illogical to me.

On a side note, the limp reraise is a play that Ive seen used many times by players holding JJ. Theyre not sure about the strength of their JJ so they limp in EP. Theres a few calls and a raise and the JJ player comes over the top with a reraise. THey figure their JJ might still be good against one opponent but not against multiple, so they reraise to try to isolate the initial raiser.. If the original raiser comes over the top, they know theyre beat and can throw the JJ away.

What would stop the guy you were trying to bluff from putting you on something like limped JJ or QQ and reading your reraise as an attempt to thin the field to maximize your PP chance of winning?

Just seems to me to bluff a very tight player player almost certainly holding AK, JJ, QQ, KK or AA, and to expect him to decide that your reraise means exactly Aces, and that his huge hand is beaten (assuming of course hes not holding the AA himself), is just asking too much in that situation.

SirWatts

Agree with what Ryan said. Also in my experience I find this limp reraise is a pure bluff or a semibluff thinking they *might* have the best hand at least as often (probably more often) as it's a monster. People know about this play and they're generally going to be correct to assume it doesn't have to be aces and call you.