My First Online Ring Game

beanie42beanie42
in Online Poker
I am primarily a tournament player, and due to a limited bankroll, I spend most of my money live at home games.  About a month ago, I started playing the $1 SnG's at UB.  I know you can't win them all, but I've started to become frustrated recently since there's no long-term in tourneys.  Even though I play fairly well, one stupid river by a donk and I'm out.  Anyway, I won $40 at Lou's free-roll, and I can't withdraw it for live play (need at least $50), so I decided to try a cash game at Paradise.  I joined a $0.50/$1.00 game, and decided to play 100 hands (or until broke :) ).  Surprisingly, after the hundred hands I was up 30BB, which seems strange considering what a bad cash-game player I am.  I posted a few of the more interesting/questionable hands below, and will post the results later.  Any comments (on the hands or my thinking) would be appreciated (just remember I'm pretty novice for ring games :) ).  Unfortunately, I really didn't pay much attention to the game as I was working and watching TV, so I have no reads on the other players (I just played my cards and position).

Game #1136920710 - $0.50/$1 Texas Hold'em - 2005/12/06-19:43:15.9 (CST)
Table "Abrantes" (real money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Seat  1: NightWare  ($67.00 in chips)
Seat  3: RAYK57  ($18.25 in chips)
Seat  4: Patri  ($37.25 in chips)
Seat  5: firefly111  ($36.75 in chips)
Seat  6: Ken13  ($19.50 in chips)
Seat  7: LuckyDude35  ($14.25 in chips)
Seat  8: EchoBay  ($50.00 in chips)
Seat  9: Small Slick_  ($8.00 in chips)
Seat 10: Beanie42  ($41.00 in chips)
Patri   : Post Small Blind ($0.25)
firefly111: Post Big Blind ($0.50)
Dealing...
Dealt to Beanie42 [ Th ]
Dealt to Beanie42 [ Kh ]
Ken13   : Fold
LuckyDude35: Call ($0.50)
EchoBay : Fold
Small Slick_: Fold
Beanie42: Call ($0.50)
What was I thinking?  Ugly cards in MP :( .
NightWare: Raise ($1)
RAYK57  : Fold
Patri   : Fold
firefly111: Call ($0.50)
LuckyDude35: Call ($0.50)
Beanie42: Call ($0.50)
*** FLOP *** : [ 2c Tc 7h ]
firefly111: Bet ($0.50)
LuckyDude35: Raise ($1)
Beanie42: Raise ($1.50)
NightWare: Raise ($2)
firefly111: Fold
LuckyDude35: Call ($1)
Beanie42: Call ($0.50)
*** TURN *** : [ 2c Tc 7h ] [ 8s ]
LuckyDude35: Check
Beanie42: Bet ($1)
NightWare: Call ($1)
LuckyDude35: Call ($1)
*** RIVER *** : [ 2c Tc 7h 8s ] [ 5s ]
LuckyDude35: Check
Beanie42: Check
NightWare: Check
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $13.25 | Rake: $0.50
Board: [ 2c  Tc  7h  8s  5s ]
I can't even comment on this hand it's so ugly to me - from the initial call all the way through the betting.  Online can't be so bad that this is justified, can it?

NightWare bet $4, collected $13.25, net +$9.25 (showed hand) [ As  Ac ]  (a pair of aces)
LuckyDude35 lost $4 (showed hand) [ Ts  Qd ]  (a pair of tens)
Beanie42 lost $4 (showed hand) [ Th  Kh ]  (a pair of tens)

Game #1136960881 - $0.50/$1 Texas Hold'em - 2005/12/06-20:01:03.1 (CST)
Table "Abrantes" (real money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Seat  1: NightWare  ($72.75 in chips)
Seat  2: DJMIDWEST  ($22.25 in chips)
Seat  3: RAYK57  ($31.25 in chips)
Seat  4: Patri  ($33.25 in chips)
Seat  5: firefly111  ($34.50 in chips)
Seat  6: Ken13  ($13.00 in chips)
Seat  7: LuckyDude35  ($7.00 in chips)
Seat  8: EchoBay  ($56.00 in chips)
Seat  9: Small Slick_  ($8.00 in chips)
Seat 10: Beanie42  ($31.00 in chips)
Patri   : Post Small Blind ($0.25)
firefly111: Post Big Blind ($0.50)
Dealing...
Dealt to Beanie42 [ 5d ]
Dealt to Beanie42 [ 5s ]
Ken13   : Fold
LuckyDude35: Call ($0.50)
EchoBay : Call ($0.50)
Small Slick_: Call ($0.50)
Beanie42: Call ($0.50)
Just limp since the flop will probably end this hand anyway
NightWare: Call ($0.50)
DJMIDWEST: Call ($0.50)
RAYK57  : Call ($0.50)
Patri   : Fold
firefly111: Check
*** FLOP *** : [ Qh 4s 5c ]
firefly111: Check
LuckyDude35: Bet ($0.50)
EchoBay : Fold
Small Slick_: Call ($0.50)
Beanie42: Raise ($1)
Beautiful flop, pretty sure I'm ahead
NightWare: Fold
DJMIDWEST: Call ($1)
RAYK57  : Call ($1)
firefly111: Call ($1)
LuckyDude35: Call ($0.50)
Small Slick_: Call ($0.50)
*** TURN *** : [ Qh 4s 5c ] [ Qs ]
firefly111: Check
LuckyDude35: Check
Small Slick_: Check
Beanie42: Bet ($1)
Bingo. Doubt anyone has Q5 or Q4, so hopefully they have trips and we can cap this
DJMIDWEST: Fold
RAYK57  : Call ($1)
firefly111: Call ($1)
LuckyDude35: Fold
Small Slick_: Call ($1)
*** RIVER *** : [ Qh 4s 5c Qs ] [ 8d ]
firefly111: Check
Small Slick_: Check
Beanie42: Bet ($1)
RAYK57  : Call ($1)
firefly111: Call ($1)
Small Slick_: Call ($1)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $17.50 | Rake: $0.75
Board: [ Qh  4s  5c  Qs  8d ]

RAYK57 lost $3.50   [ Qd  9c ]  (three of a kind, queens)
Patri lost $0.25 (folded)
firefly111 lost $3.50   [ Jc  Js ]  (two pair, queens and jacks)
Small Slick_ lost $3.50   [ 7h  7d ]  (two pair, queens and sevens)
Beanie42 bet $3.50, collected $17.50, net +$14 (showed hand) [ 5d  5s ]  (a full house, fives full of queens)

Game #1137049447 - $0.50/$1 Texas Hold'em - 2005/12/06-20:40:37.4 (CST)
Table "Abrantes" (real money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Seat  1: NightWare  ($65.75 in chips)
Seat  2: samfarha113  ($21.00 in chips)
Seat  3: willybeamer  ($21.25 in chips)
Seat  4: Patri  ($42.75 in chips)
Seat  5: Shanik0  ($12.50 in chips)
Seat  6: chadt74  ($24.50 in chips)
Seat  7: Nario  ($20.50 in chips)
Seat  8: Lairbear  ($9.50 in chips)
Seat 10: Beanie42  ($45.50 in chips)
willybeamer: Post Small Blind ($0.25)
Patri   : Sit out
Shanik0 : Post Big Blind ($0.50)
Dealing...
Dealt to Beanie42 [ 9s ]
Dealt to Beanie42 [ Td ]
chadt74 : Fold
Nario   : Fold
Lairbear: Call ($0.50)
Beanie42: Call ($0.50)
NightWare: Fold
samfarha113: Call ($0.50)
willybeamer: Fold
Shanik0 : Check
*** FLOP *** : [ 8d 9h Ah ]
Shanik0 : Check
Lairbear: Bet ($0.50)
Beanie42: Call ($0.50)
I don't like the Ace, but game has seemed loose enough to warrant a call
samfarha113: Call ($0.50)
Shanik0 : Fold
*** TURN *** : [ 8d 9h Ah ] [ 8s ]
Lairbear: Bet ($1)
Beanie42: Call ($1)
samfarha113: Call ($1)
*** RIVER *** : [ 8d 9h Ah 8s ] [ 9d ]
Lairbear: Check
Beanie42: Bet ($1)
Surprisingly, when I saw this I was thinking "split" rather than "winner", but felt I had to bet for value despite my gut
samfarha113: Call ($1)
Lairbear: Call ($1)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $9.50 | Rake: $0.25
Board: [ 8d  9h  Ah  8s  9d ]

RAYK57 lost $3.50   [ Qd  9c ]  (three of a kind, queens)
firefly111 lost $3.50   [ Jc  Js ]  (two pair, queens and jacks)
Small Slick_ lost $3.50   [ 7h  7d ]  (two pair, queens and sevens)
Beanie42 bet $3.50, collected $17.50, net +$14 (showed hand) [ 5d  5s ]  (a full house, fives full of queens)

Game #1137091431 - $0.50/$1 Texas Hold'em - 2005/12/06-20:59:15.7 (CST)
Table "Abrantes" (real money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Seat  1: NightWare  ($64.25 in chips)
Seat  2: jj311  ($29.25 in chips)
Seat  3: willybeamer  ($13.00 in chips)
Seat  4: MMTAP  ($14.00 in chips)
Seat  5: Shanik0  ($8.00 in chips)
Seat  6: chadt74  ($21.50 in chips)
Seat  7: Nario  ($16.00 in chips)
Seat  9: Mama_Mia  ($8.00 in chips)
Seat 10: Beanie42  ($62.75 in chips)
jj311   : Post Small Blind ($0.25)
willybeamer: Post Big Blind ($0.50)
MMTAP   : Sit out
Dealing...
Dealt to Beanie42 [ Ac ]
Dealt to Beanie42 [ 9c ]
Shanik0 : Fold
chadt74 : Fold
Nario   : Fold
Mama_Mia: Call ($0.50)
Beanie42: Raise ($1)
Not really strong hand, but I know I'm calling anyway, so I raise to see where I'm at
NightWare: Fold
jj311   : Raise ($1.25)
willybeamer: Fold
Mama_Mia: Fold
Beanie42: Call ($0.50)
*** FLOP *** : [ 2h 4d Jc ]
jj311   : Bet ($0.50)
Beanie42: Call ($0.50)
*** TURN *** : [ 2h 4d Jc ] [ As ]
jj311   : Bet ($1)
Beanie42: Call ($1)
Think I'm behind - would've preferred to catch my kicker.  Don't know why I called here
*** RIVER *** : [ 2h 4d Jc As ] [ 6h ]
jj311   : Bet ($1)
Beanie42: Call ($1)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $8.75 | Rake: $0.25
Board: [ 2h  4d  Jc  As  6h ]

jj311 bet $4, collected $4.50, net +$0.50 (showed hand) [ 9s  Ad ]  (a pair of aces)
Beanie42 bet $4, collected $4.25, net +$0.25 (showed hand) [ Ac  9c ]  (a pair of aces)

Game #1137131777 - $0.50/$1 Texas Hold'em - 2005/12/06-21:16:45.0 (CST)
Table "Abrantes" (real money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Seat  1: NightWare  ($71.50 in chips)
Seat  2: jj311  ($38.25 in chips)
Seat  3: willybeamer  ($14.00 in chips)
Seat  4: MMTAP  ($11.00 in chips)
Seat  5: Garbenator75  ($45.00 in chips)
Seat  6: chadt74  ($21.25 in chips)
Seat  7: Nario  ($16.75 in chips)
Seat  8: SGV76  ($20.50 in chips)
Seat  9: RaiseThaFlag  ($27.00 in chips)
Seat 10: Beanie42  ($60.75 in chips)
Beanie42: Post Small Blind ($0.25)
NightWare: Post Big Blind ($0.50)
Dealt to Beanie42 [ Ks ]
Dealt to Beanie42 [ 3s ]
jj311   : Call ($0.50)
willybeamer: Fold
MMTAP   : Fold
Garbenator75: Call ($0.50)
chadt74 : Fold
Nario   : Fold
SGV76   : Fold
RaiseThaFlag: Call ($0.50)
Beanie42: Call ($0.25)
They're SOOTED, and it's pretty cheap :)
NightWare: Check
*** FLOP *** : [ Kc 9s Kh ]
Beanie42: Check
YAY! Pretty sure I'm ahead, but try to induce someone behind to start betting
NightWare: Check
jj311   : Check
Garbenator75: Check
RaiseThaFlag: Check
*** TURN *** : [ Kc 9s Kh ] [ Tc ]
Beanie42: Bet ($1)
Checking didn't work - I'm raising the rest of the way
NightWare: Fold
jj311   : Call ($1)
Garbenator75: Fold
RaiseThaFlag: Call ($1)
*** RIVER *** : [ Kc 9s Kh Tc ] [ 4h ]
Beanie42: Bet ($1)
jj311   : Fold
RaiseThaFlag: Fold
Beanie42: Winner -- doesn't show cards
Everyone folded so didn't get paid much, but I think I had to bet here
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $5.25 | Rake: $0.25
Board: [ Kc  9s  Kh  Tc  4h ]

Beanie42 bet $2.50, collected $6.25, net +$3.75   [ Ks  3s ]  (three of a kind, kings)

Game #1137134662 - $0.50/$1 Texas Hold'em - 2005/12/06-21:18:05.6 (CST)
Table "Abrantes" (real money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Seat  1: NightWare  ($71.00 in chips)
Seat  2: jj311  ($36.75 in chips)
Seat  3: willybeamer  ($14.00 in chips)
Seat  4: MMTAP  ($11.00 in chips)
Seat  5: Garbenator75  ($44.50 in chips)
Seat  6: chadt74  ($21.25 in chips)
Seat  7: Nario  ($16.75 in chips)
Seat  8: SGV76  ($20.50 in chips)
Seat  9: RaiseThaFlag  ($25.50 in chips)
Seat 10: Beanie42  ($64.50 in chips)
NightWare: Post Small Blind ($0.25)
jj311   : Post Big Blind ($0.50)
Dealing...
Dealt to Beanie42 [ Kc ]
Dealt to Beanie42 [ Qc ]
willybeamer: Fold
MMTAP   : Fold
Garbenator75: Call ($0.50)
chadt74 : Fold
Nario   : Fold
SGV76   : Fold
RaiseThaFlag: Call ($0.50)
Beanie42: Raise ($1)
On button with lots of limpers and mediocre hand.  Raise
NightWare: Fold
jj311   : Call ($0.50)
Garbenator75: Call ($0.50)
RaiseThaFlag: Call ($0.50)
*** FLOP *** : [ Js Ad 9d ]
jj311   : Check
Garbenator75: Check
RaiseThaFlag: Bet ($0.50)
Beanie42: Raise ($1)
For some reason I don't think anyone has an A here.  I think I'm ahead or have overs, and I also have the straight draw.  I raise here while it's cheap mainly to buy a free turn card
jj311   : Call ($1)
Garbenator75: Fold
RaiseThaFlag: Call ($0.50)
*** TURN *** : [ Js Ad 9d ] [ Kd ]
jj311   : Check
RaiseThaFlag: Check
Beanie42: Bet ($1)
Ouch.  There's a lot of ugliness on this board, most of which beats me.  However, hoping it missed everyone else, I take my last shot
jj311   : Fold
RaiseThaFlag: Call ($1)
*** RIVER *** : [ Js Ad 9d Kd ] [ Jh ]
RaiseThaFlag: Check
Beanie42: Check
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $9 | Rake: $0.25
Board: [ Js  Ad  9d  Kd  Jh ]

RaiseThaFlag bet $3, collected $9, net +$6 (showed hand) [ As  4h ]  (two pair, aces and jacks)
Beanie42 lost $3   [ Kc  Qc ]  (two pair, kings and jacks)

Game #1137141760 - $0.50/$1 Texas Hold'em - 2005/12/06-21:21:16.9 (CST)
Table "Abrantes" (real money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Seat  1: NightWare  ($70.75 in chips)
Seat  2: jj311  ($34.50 in chips)
Seat  3: willybeamer  ($13.50 in chips)
Seat  4: MMTAP  ($11.00 in chips)
Seat  5: Garbenator75  ($41.50 in chips)
Seat  6: chadt74  ($21.25 in chips)
Seat  7: Nario  ($15.75 in chips)
Seat  8: SGV76  ($24.00 in chips)
Seat  9: RaiseThaFlag  ($31.50 in chips)
Seat 10: Beanie42  ($61.50 in chips)
willybeamer: Post Small Blind ($0.25)
MMTAP   : Post Big Blind ($0.50)
Dealing...
Dealt to Beanie42 [ 9h ]
Dealt to Beanie42 [ 9d ]
Garbenator75: Call ($0.50)
chadt74 : Fold
Nario   : Raise ($1)
SGV76   : Fold
RaiseThaFlag: Fold
Beanie42: Call ($1)
With the raiser in front, this is strong enough to see a flop, but I don't think I should raise
NightWare: Fold
jj311   : Fold
willybeamer: Fold
MMTAP   : Fold
Garbenator75: Call ($0.50)
*** FLOP *** : [ Kh 9c 7h ]
Garbenator75: Check
Nario   : Bet ($0.50)
Beanie42: Raise ($1)
I'm raising this the rest of the way unless I see a heart
Garbenator75: Fold
Nario   : Raise ($1)
Beanie42: Raise ($1)
Nario   : Call ($0.50)
*** TURN *** : [ Kh 9c 7h ] [ Jc ]
Nario   : Bet ($1)
Beanie42: Raise ($2)
Nario   : Call ($1)
*** RIVER *** : [ Kh 9c 7h Jc ] [ Ad ]
Nario   : Check
Beanie42: Bet ($1)
Nario   : Raise ($2)
Beanie42: Raise ($2)
Nario   : Call ($1)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $17 | Rake: $0.75
Board: [ Kh  9c  7h  Jc  Ad ]

Nario lost $8   [ As  Kc ]  (two pair, aces and kings)
Beanie42 bet $8, collected $17, net +$9 (showed hand) [ 9h  9d ]  (three of a kind, nines)

Comments

  • BBC ZBBC Z
    #1) KTs in MP with one limper you should raise. Your hand plays easier against fewer opponents. The pot is pretty small, I'd prefer to see the turn card and turn action so I dont think I'd 3bet there.

    #2) Standard.

    #3) You better learn to be able to fold offsuit connectors in small pots or you'll never be a winning player.

    #4) Don't raise for information, it's the suckers bet in holdem. Raise witha purpose. In your case it could be to fold out the blinds or fold a tight button or... .
    #4 point 2) You catch your ace on the turn and are behind to what exactly? Dude, you have the best hand BY FAR. Raise that turn or raise the river.

    #5) Call with anything suited in the SB. You get insane pot odds.
    2) Please, lead out the flop. You want someone in late position to bet so you cna check-raise them, knocking everyone else out behind you when you have a monster hand? No. .50/1 is full of calling stations, explot that by being straightforward with the goods. They'll call, don't worry.

    #6) You raise is for value. KQs on the button is a monster hand. Lock that equity edge in early. You don't think out of a few limpers one may hold an ace? Why? Are you revising your opponents hand range to suit your cards and justify your actions? Also you don;t have "The Straight Draw" you have an inside straight draw which is worth 4 outs and has a 10.5 to 1 chance of completing on a given street.

    #7) Keep betting even when scare cads hit against loose opponents.


    Ok.. I see an overall trend of attempting to apply NL thinking to a Limit game. It doesn't work. In NL you can sandbag and slowplay and trap to your hearts content because as long as they call the all-in, you win the money. This doesn't work in a structured betting game.

    I'm going to recommend Lee Jones' book to you, you don't seem to know the WHY's of raising and calling and the odds of hands completing. I also think you are too loose and too passive, but the first thing is to get you to tighten up and understand the fundamentals of the game. Give it a few ten thousand hands and then when you are comfortable move on the SSHE.
  • beanie42beanie42
    BBC Z wrote:
    #4 point 2) You catch your ace on the turn and are behind to what exactly? Dude, you have the best hand BY FAR. Raise that turn or raise the river.
    As I said, I didn't have any specific reads.  However, I was watching the table, so I think my subconscious was picking something up.  For some reason I "felt" that I was up against another ace, and if so then it's a coin-flip whether my kicker is good.  Again, just a gut feeling here.
    BBC Z wrote:
    2) Please, lead out the flop. You want someone in late position to bet so you cna check-raise them, knocking everyone else out behind you when you have a monster hand? No. .50/1 is full of calling stations, explot that by being straightforward with the goods. They'll call, don't worry.
    Good point - newbie mistake :(
    BBC Z wrote:
    #6) You raise is for value. KQs on the button is a monster hand. Lock that equity edge in early. You don't think out of a few limpers one may hold an ace? Why? Are you revising your opponents hand range to suit your cards and justify your actions? Also you don;t have "The Straight Draw" you have an inside straight draw which is worth 4 outs and has a 10.5 to 1 chance of completing on a given street.
    When I say the straight draw, I was meaning compared to the OESD.  As far as thinking no Ace, again just another gut feel.  I shouldn't rely on them so much and normally don't, but normally I actually pay fairly close attention to the action (which I wasn't last night).
    BBC Z wrote:
    Ok.. I see an overall trend of attempting to apply NL thinking to a Limit game. It doesn't work. In NL you can sandbag and slowplay and trap to your hearts content because as long as they call the all-in, you win the money. This doesn't work in a structured betting game.
    Perfect analysis.  I couldn't put my finger on it, but this was gnawing at me.  I definitely don't yet understand "limit thinking" as I've played it for 1 hour live, and this was my first time playing it online.  Guess I have some work to do ...
    BBC Z wrote:
    I'm going to recommend Lee Jones' book to you, you don't seem to know the WHY's of raising and calling and the odds of hands completing.
    Thanks for the recommendation.  I'm just finishing Harrington 2 for my tourney play, and then I'll get on this.  I do actually know hand odds, but I definitely am clueless with the differences in betting.  For some reason I thought it would only be a minor difference from NL.
    BBC Z wrote:
    I also think you are too loose and too passive, but the first thing is to get you to tighten up and understand the fundamentals of the game.
    Wow.  I know I'm a bit passive, and even more so last night since it was my first-time, but I've never been called loose (a few guys will be surprised :) ).  I actually thought I was fairly tight (in my unposted hands I folded low pairs to a raise, A7o, 56s, etc.) so maybe it's just the non-random sample of hands I chose for feedback?  My stats from the session had me folding 74% pre-flop, and of the hands where I saw a flop I won 44% (at showdown I was 62%).  I was thinking that hands #1, #3, and #5 were questionable, although your comments seem to show you only question #3.  How do you think I should tighten up?  Do you mean I'm loose with my hand selection, or are you mainly referring to my (unskilled) betting?

    Thanks for the good feedback BBC. Very appreciated.
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    Limit poker is math and probabilities. Gut feelings at .50/$1 arent worth much.
    I actually thought I was fairly tight (in my unposted hands I folded low pairs to a raise, A7o, 56s, etc

    A7o should be a brainless fold and depending on the game 56s is a call..
    How do you think I should tighten up? Do you mean I'm loose with my hand selection, or are you mainly referring to my (unskilled) betting?

    You need to follow Jones' starting hand requirements to the letter. THEN figure out WHY he makes those recommendations to play them. Once you do that, you can progress to adjusting them for opponent types.
  • Big EBig E
    Trevor, if you want to borrow Jones I'd gladly lend it to you, it's the Low Limit Hold'em Bible. I would love to read Harrington 2 when you're done...I have read 1 and it really helped my tournament play (although people who play with me would beg to differ and still say I suck!!!!) but I'd love to read 2.

    congratz on a successful session.

    Big E.
  • Big EBig E
    BBC Z wrote:
    Limit poker is math and probabilities. Gut feelings at .50/$1 arent worth much.


    You need to follow Jones' starting hand requirements to the letter. THEN figure out WHY he makes those recommendations to play them. Once you do that, you can progress to adjusting them for opponent types.

    Amen! This is a must!
  • beanie42beanie42
    Big E wrote:
    Trevor, if you want to borrow Jones I'd gladly lend it to you, it's the Low Limit Hold'em Bible. I would love to read Harrington 2 when you're done
    Done (and thanks).  I'll PM you when I'm finished it (and Wolffhound, this isn't your copy - I finally bought my own :) ).
    Big E wrote:
    congratz on a successful session.
    Thanks, although I think that is more due to luck than skill  :D
  • magithighsmagithighs
    beanie42 wrote:
    Anyway, I won $40 at Lou's free-roll, and I can't withdraw it for live play (need at least $50), so I decided to try a cash game at Paradise.  I joined a $0.50/$1.00 game, and decided to play 100 hands (or until broke :) ).  Surprisingly, after the hundred hands I was up 30BB, which seems strange considering what a bad cash-game player I am. 

    Glad to see the money's going to good use.  I too would highly recommend Lee Jone's book.  It was my first book, and to this day I think it's the very best book I bought.  Possibly, because I knew so little when I bought it.  However, I think it has ALL the things a novice should know and ALL the things you need to know as an advanced player.  It's all in there.  I asked Lee to sign it for me and when he saw how torn and tattered it was, he called over his wife.  He had  to show her how someone had gotten so much use out of his book!

    Great session.  At 30 BB/100 hands, you can do this full time!  Well, the prizon style beats will come and it will even out.  However, it does show your cash game is pretty decent compared to your competition.  Don't be too hard on yourself.   Here's my thoughts on the hands.
    beanie42 wrote:
    Dealing...
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ Th ]
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ Kh ]
    Ken13   : Fold
    LuckyDude35: Call ($0.50)
    EchoBay : Fold
    Small Slick_: Fold
    Beanie42: Call ($0.50)
    What was I thinking?  Ugly cards in MP :( .
    NightWare: Raise ($1)
    RAYK57  : Fold
    Patri   : Fold
    firefly111: Call ($0.50)
    LuckyDude35: Call ($0.50)
    Beanie42: Call ($0.50)
    *** FLOP *** : [ 2c Tc 7h ]
    firefly111: Bet ($0.50)
    LuckyDude35: Raise ($1)
    Beanie42: Raise ($1.50)
    NightWare: Raise ($2)
    firefly111: Fold
    LuckyDude35: Call ($1)
    Beanie42: Call ($0.50)
    *** TURN *** : [ 2c Tc 7h ] [ 8s ]
    LuckyDude35: Check
    Beanie42: Bet ($1)
    NightWare: Call ($1)
    LuckyDude35: Call ($1)
    *** RIVER *** : [ 2c Tc 7h 8s ] [ 5s ]
    LuckyDude35: Check
    Beanie42: Check
    NightWare: Check
    *** SUMMARY ***

    Personally, I don't like KTs unless I'm in LMP and there are two limpers ahead of me.  However, at .5/1 you can push it up and play it in MP with one limper.  It's a decent limit hand with lots of potential.  You just need to have customers ready and willing to pay when you hit.  What you did hit is top pair, and quite often you'll find it gets beat at LL.  The trick is to let it go when you're beat.   With more players behind you, at this limit, I might smooth call the flop and raise the turn to get someone to fold.  You played it well -- I would value bet it at the end.
    beanie42 wrote:

    Game #1136960881 - $0.50/$1 Texas Hold'em - 2005/12/06-20:01:03.1 (CST)
    Table "Abrantes" (real money) -- Seat 3 is the button
    Seat  1: NightWare  ($72.75 in chips)
    Seat  2: DJMIDWEST  ($22.25 in chips)
    Seat  3: RAYK57  ($31.25 in chips)
    Seat  4: Patri  ($33.25 in chips)
    Seat  5: firefly111  ($34.50 in chips)
    Seat  6: Ken13  ($13.00 in chips)
    Seat  7: LuckyDude35  ($7.00 in chips)
    Seat  8: EchoBay  ($56.00 in chips)
    Seat  9: Small Slick_  ($8.00 in chips)
    Seat 10: Beanie42  ($31.00 in chips)
    Patri   : Post Small Blind ($0.25)
    firefly111: Post Big Blind ($0.50)
    Dealing...
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ 5d ]
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ 5s ]
    Ken13   : Fold
    LuckyDude35: Call ($0.50)
    EchoBay : Call ($0.50)
    Small Slick_: Call ($0.50)
    Beanie42: Call ($0.50)
    Just limp since the flop will probably end this hand anyway
    NightWare: Call ($0.50)
    DJMIDWEST: Call ($0.50)
    RAYK57  : Call ($0.50)
    Patri   : Fold
    firefly111: Check
    *** FLOP *** : [ Qh 4s 5c ]
    firefly111: Check
    LuckyDude35: Bet ($0.50)
    EchoBay : Fold
    Small Slick_: Call ($0.50)
    Beanie42: Raise ($1)
    Beautiful flop, pretty sure I'm ahead
    NightWare: Fold
    DJMIDWEST: Call ($1)
    RAYK57  : Call ($1)
    firefly111: Call ($1)
    LuckyDude35: Call ($0.50)
    Small Slick_: Call ($0.50)
    *** TURN *** : [ Qh 4s 5c ] [ Qs ]
    firefly111: Check
    LuckyDude35: Check
    Small Slick_: Check
    Beanie42: Bet ($1)
    Bingo. Doubt anyone has Q5 or Q4, so hopefully they have trips and we can cap this
    DJMIDWEST: Fold
    RAYK57  : Call ($1)
    firefly111: Call ($1)
    LuckyDude35: Fold
    Small Slick_: Call ($1)
    *** RIVER *** : [ Qh 4s 5c Qs ] [ 8d ]
    firefly111: Check
    Small Slick_: Check
    Beanie42: Bet ($1)
    RAYK57  : Call ($1)
    firefly111: Call ($1)
    Small Slick_: Call ($1)
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Pot: $17.50 | Rake: $0.75
    Board: [ Qh  4s  5c  Qs  8d ]

    Love the way you played this one -- good NL players play there's sets hard and fast.  Glad to see you didn't wait for the turn to raise.  With fewer players, you might want to squeeze out more bets by waiting until the turn.  But multi-way -- get those bets in when you're ahead.
    beanie42 wrote:

    Dealing...
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ 9s ]
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ Td ]

    Easy fold in any position in any game, even NL.  Do you really want to pay of the guy with KTs?
    beanie42 wrote:
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ Ac ]
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ 9c ]
    Shanik0 : Fold
    chadt74 : Fold
    Nario   : Fold
    Mama_Mia: Call ($0.50)
    Beanie42: Raise ($1)
    Not really strong hand, but I know I'm calling anyway, so I raise to see where I'm at

    I would raise because I think I have the best hand and/or I want to buy the button.  One more position off the button, and I'm calling.  
    beanie42 wrote:
    *** TURN *** : [ 2h 4d Jc ] [ As ]
    jj311   : Bet ($1)
    Beanie42: Call ($1)
    Think I'm behind - would've preferred to catch my kicker.  Don't know why I called here
    *** RIVER *** : [ 2h 4d Jc As ] [ 6h ]

    Raise, take the free showdown. It will be hard for him to re-raise without something better than top pair. Always good to show some aggression.  Good for the image.
    beanie42 wrote:
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ Ks ]
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ 3s ]

    This is the spot I see the most errors.  You're looking to hit the nut flush here and I wouldn't get married to the hand if you hit top pair.  Quite often, I check fold if I have top pair and no draw.  Yes, it's weak -- but I have a weak hand and no position.  Any two suited here is just trouble.  Yes, there are implied odds, but it's really hard to play well from this spot.  
    beanie42 wrote:
    YAY! Pretty sure I'm ahead, but try to induce someone behind to start betting

    No way you can be sure you're ahead.  Somone can have Kx and or 99.  I would bet out here.  It's important to give some information here, just in case someone has a better hand or hit's their straight on the turn.  This allows you to slow down instead of spewing big bets.
    beanie42 wrote:
    Dealing...
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ Kc ]
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ Qc ]
    willybeamer: Fold
    MMTAP   : Fold
    Garbenator75: Call ($0.50)
    chadt74 : Fold
    Nario   : Fold
    SGV76   : Fold
    RaiseThaFlag: Call ($0.50)
    Beanie42: Raise ($1)
    On button with lots of limpers and mediocre hand.  Raise

    It's a great multi-way hand.  Good for you to take control.  The key is to take a free card if it's offerred in a multi-way pot.  I like to peel off a free river card, instead of a free turn card.  Allows me to be in control of the hand and get paid in big bets when I hit, and I pay in small bets when I'm drawing.
    beanie42 wrote:
    NightWare: Fold
    jj311   : Call ($0.50)
    Garbenator75: Call ($0.50)
    RaiseThaFlag: Call ($0.50)
    *** FLOP *** : [ Js Ad 9d ]
    jj311   : Check
    Garbenator75: Check
    RaiseThaFlag: Bet ($0.50)
    Beanie42: Raise ($1)
    For some reason I don't think anyone has an A here.  I think I'm ahead or have overs, and I also have the straight draw.  I raise here while it's cheap mainly to buy a free turn card

    I always entertain the possibility of someone holding an ace in Low limits and many of the games I play.  Any ace is the favourite hand of poor players, and you'll never know they have the ace until the showdown -- because they're poor players and won't protect the crappy hand they just made.  I like to muck here.

    beanie42 wrote:
    *** TURN *** : [ Js Ad 9d ] [ Kd ]
    jj311   : Check
    RaiseThaFlag: Check
    Beanie42: Bet ($1)
    Ouch.  There's a lot of ugliness on this board, most of which beats me.  However, hoping it missed everyone else, I take my last shot
    jj311   : Fold
    RaiseThaFlag: Call ($1)

    Don't you just hate making a hand that makes it hard for you to bet.  It's a clue that you shouldn't have been here.
    beanie42 wrote:
    Dealing...
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ 9h ]
    Dealt to Beanie42 [ 9d ]
    Garbenator75: Call ($0.50)
    chadt74 : Fold
    Nario   : Raise ($1)
    SGV76   : Fold
    RaiseThaFlag: Fold
    Beanie42: Call ($1)
    With the raiser in front, this is strong enough to see a flop, but I don't think I should raise

    As the first to act after a raiser, I'm usually thinking raise or fold.  I think it applies here.  I'd advocate raising, as the first to act after the raiser has the worst position -- same applies to NL only moreso.
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    I was going to respond to the comments Magi has made..

    But then I remembered that we disagree about the game at a fundamental level. I'm a student of Miller and Magi is a student of Lee Jones. It's up to you to figure out what style you want to adapt to. One is more profitable but results in more variance. It's an exercise left to the readers to determine which one they want to adopt.

    Suffice it to say that I would play the hands differently and I would not look at a 30BB win for a session as an indicator that you are a winning ring game player. I would also never use the term image and .50/$1 limit poker in the same sentence.
  • ScoobyDScoobyD
    I'm a student of Miller and Magi is a student of Lee Jones.

    I wouldn't really say the 2 books differ that greatly, certainly there's excellent points to be made in both. I'd say the former preaches the "aggressive" in tight-aggressive, and the latter preaches the "tight" in tight-aggressive.

    As for the hands, I'll try to give my take to see where I land in the Jones/Miller debate (I suspect I'm somewhere in between).

    1) KTs isn't that bad a hand in a LL game. I'd love to play that hand in a multiway pot, but you have to realize you're playing moreso for the flush/straight potential of the hand than top pair. You'll frequently find pairing the K leaves you with kicker problems, and pairing the T will leave you vulnerable to overcards (or possibly overpairs in a raised pot). I'm not sure I like the flop 3 bet, but it's not that bad considering you at least have a backdoor flush to give you a little help. Given the slowdown on the turn, I'd guess it's reasonably possible that you're ahead. the preflop raiser might have an overapair given the cap, or it's possible he was raising a flush draw + overcards. I think I'd be inclined to bet the river for value, since I'm obligated to call one bet on the end.

    2) Good hand, way to press your equity advantage on the flop in the multiway pot. Playing sets fast vs. LL players is generally the best way to go.

    3) As Magi said, T9o is a questionable hand at best (I'd consider it in the SB), let alone playing it in MP with only one person in the pot. I think this a pretty clear preflop fold. As for the flop and turn, A-rag is such a likely holding and the pot is so small anyways, just fold it on the flop (there's also a flush and a straight draw, plus overcards to beat you even if your hand is currently best). Ditto for the turn. Obvious bet for value on the river.

    4) Don't raise to "see where you're at". Given there's only one limper in front, your hand is likely best. With more people left to act I might just limp it, but I like your raise here to pick up the button. I don't understand why you think your behind on the turn. If so, why didn't you just fold on the flop? I guess you're worried about an ace with a better kicker or being reverse dominated by a worse ace that already paired their kicker. I think I'd raise the turn. I don't really like the flop call either. Him betting into you could be a J, but could also be a small pair. I think I prefer to raise or fold on the flop. Very read-dependant.

    5) A suited K in the SB is an easy call with any body in the pot since your pot-odds are so good. That being said, you have to be able to not get married to hands like TPNK or bottom/middle pair. You're really looking at flush potential on the flop. Lead the flop, most LL players won't give you credit for hands, and you'll likely get raised by a 9 (from an aggressive player). As well there's plently of gutshot possibiliites (QJ, QT, JT) and most LL players will make brutal gutshot calls when it's cheap on the flop, so exploit them by betting. Even small pocket pairs and sometimes A high will peel one on the flop. As well, Kx is certainly possible for one of the other holdings, and you'd want to find out as soon as possible to potentially save yourself from heavy betting in later streets (specifically beware of someone who smooth-calls you on the flop and then raises you on the turn when a blank hits).

    6) Easy pf raise for value. KQs on the button vs. 2 limpers (or 8 limpers) is a monster. Ugly flop though and you have crappy relative position to the bettor. Your K and Q are highly dubious outs, and you have a gutshot which might only have 3 clean outs. Plus a flush draw redraw against you even if you do hit one of your 3 clean outs. I wouldn't hesitate to fold here. Raising would be my 2nd option and I think calling is the worst of the 3. Given that you raised the flop, I'd bet the turn, but be ready to fold to a raise. I check the river down as well...

    7) With more people in the pot, I think I'd be inclined to just cold call, since a 3 bet may be ineffective at knocking people out. Vs the one limper, I think 3 betting here right after the raiser is a decent play if the pf raiser has fairly loose raising standards since it will likely knock out the blinds and the limper (or force him to make a pretty weak call of 2 bets cold). Other than that, the rest of the hand is played pretty well. I'd guess the raiser had AK making top 2 on the end.
  • beanie42beanie42
    Thanks for the feedback Lou.  A lot of good points there.
    magithighs wrote:
    Glad to see the money's going to good use.
    It's teaching me - just hope I don't flunk out of school  :fish:
    magithighs wrote:
    beanie42 wrote:
    For some reason I don't think anyone has an A here.  I think I'm ahead or have overs, and I also have the straight draw.  I raise here while it's cheap mainly to buy a free turn card

    I always entertain the possibility of someone holding an ace in Low limits and many of the games I play.  Any ace is the favourite hand of poor players, and you'll never know they have the ace until the showdown -- because they're poor players and won't protect the crappy hand they just made.  I like to muck here.
    As I said earlier, just a feeling I had here.  I almost always give credit for the Ace, but the way this hand played out didn't seem consistent with how they had normally been played at this table.  Not a real good reason, but my reason at the time :) .  I am trying to be honest about what I was thinking last night (even though my thinking was dumb) rather than present "revisionist history".  When you see the results, you'll understand I'm being honest in my comments from an "at-the-time" perspective ... (big hint on villians hand here ;) ).

    magithighs wrote:
    Don't you just hate making a hand that makes it hard for you to bet.  It's a clue that you shouldn't have been here.
    Definitely, although I thought this was a playable hand looking for the straight/flush.  However, I still haven't read any of the limit starting hand guides yet.
  • beanie42beanie42
    BBC Z wrote:
    But then I remembered that we disagree about the game at a fundamental level. I'm a student of Miller and Magi is a student of Lee Jones. It's up to you to figure out what style you want to adapt to. One is more profitable but results in more variance. It's an exercise left to the readers to determine which one they want to adopt.
    Based on Scooby's comments following this, I'm assuming Jones is lower variance. Right now, I think I should probably be focusing on that until I become a lot more skilled at limit, and until my bankroll can afford to take a big hit. I do appreciate the different perspectives though - makes it easier to understand and learn when you see both styles.
    BBC Z wrote:
    Suffice it to say that I would play the hands differently and I would not look at a 30BB win for a session as an indicator that you are a winning ring game player.
    I still don't know how to bet, but obviously need to tighten my starting requirements. I actually loosened up a lot from my normal game since I keep hearing online/low-limit is super-loose. I just think I went a bit too far! And as far as being a winning player, I really think I was just a lucky player last night (with horrible competition as Lou mentioned) - but I do aspire to be better.
  • Hork42Hork42
    A couple of things - 1 session does not tell you anything about how successful you will be long term. 30BB is irrelevant. Nice night, go treat a buddy to dinner if you want, but the long run is a long long time.

    Low Limit holdem is all about pushing small edges over and over and over and over. Sometimes you will have a good sense that you are beat, but pot odds dictate that you must pay your opponent off anyway. It's all about the math. Do not make any "image plays" at the .5/1 level, they are just -EV moves.

    Oh, and Raise AA preflop.
  • boxcardboxcard
    I am going to throw my two cents in here...

    I have not read Miller, but I have read Jones. I feel that Jones' book is a great read after reading Dave's book and playing for a little while. IMO the key to LLHE ring games is to play straight forward most of the time. Making subtle changes to your game plan after you have a read on the table is good, but if you are not paying careful attention I would recommend playing it straight forward. Odds are at most of these tables you are playing against players who are not paying close enough attention either, or they are just plain bad. There is a reason it is referred to as No Foldem Holdem.

    1) preflop call. flop I would call, but if BB or EP caps I still call anyway.turn check and call. river I bet here. Ithink both missed their draws. If one raises call. if both raise I let it go.

    2) I play the same as you here.

    3) I fold this hand preflop. Not enough action before me to warrant a call. My hand will need lots of help to be a winner here.

    4) preflop i call here. If I hit the flop, I want action, so get it cheap and take a look. Flop I fold, as I think I am behind.

    5) I fold here.

    6) preflop I call. flop I fold. I have 3 outs to make nut straight and no flush chance left. I am behind, as many people have said before me, LLHE players LOVE to play Ax.

    7) preflop, I would actually consider folding this hand, but a call here is definately ok. I believe he has AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or a big Ace. Big ace good for me, big pair very bad for me. IF I called, on flop when he reraises, I call, not cap.turn I call. River I bet and call a raise.

    *** I am not a lawyer...er, I mean a pro poker player. I am relatively new to the game, having played for about a year and a half. I did not post this as advice, only to share with others how I would have played these hands in OP's shoes. I have averaged about 1.6BB/hr profit playing micro limit during this time. Perhaps if I read Miller, I may make more.

    oh, yeah. FWIW, I very much enjoy reading everyone's posts on this forum regarding the play of hands. Some of my favorites are All_aces, Wader, Zithal, Dave Scharf, and BBC Z, in no particular order. Keep posting guys.
  • JohnnieHJohnnieH
    Hork42 wrote:
    A couple of things - 1 session does not tell you anything about how successful you will be long term. 30BB is irrelevant. Nice night, go treat a buddy to dinner if you want, but the long run is a long long time.

    Low Limit holdem is all about pushing small edges over and over and over and over. Sometimes you will have a good sense that you are beat, but pot odds dictate that you must pay your opponent off anyway. It's all about the math. Do not make any "image plays" at the .5/1 level, they are just -EV moves.

    Oh, and Raise AA preflop.



    Couldn't agree more. Well said.

    Trevor, the same thing happened to me @ Paradise. After my first LL ring game(trying to clear the bonus) I was up $20. However the next night, I had no cards, luck or skill and was down $10,so I left. (Orginal buy in) Take each night with a grain of salt, some are great, some suck. Just like live games.

    BYW, if you plan to play in a LL tournament @ Paradise, let me know, I'll probally be able to play with you. My favorites are the No Limilt Big Buck tournys, and the Toucan limit tournament ($5)

    JohnnieH
  • beanie42beanie42
    I've modified the OP and added the results.
    beanie42 wrote:
    magithighs wrote:
    beanie42 wrote:
    For some reason I don't think anyone has an A here. I think I'm ahead or have overs, and I also have the straight draw. I raise here while it's cheap mainly to buy a free turn card

    I always entertain the possibility of someone holding an ace in Low limits and many of the games I play. Any ace is the favourite hand of poor players, and you'll never know they have the ace until the showdown -- because they're poor players and won't protect the crappy hand they just made. I like to muck here.
    As I said earlier, just a feeling I had here. I almost always give credit for the Ace, but the way this hand played out didn't seem consistent with how they had normally been played at this table. Not a real good reason, but my reason at the time :) . I am trying to be honest about what I was thinking last night (even though my thinking was dumb) rather than present "revisionist history". When you see the results, you'll understand I'm being honest in my comments from an "at-the-time" perspective ... (big hint on villians hand here ;) ).

    As I said, I was presenting my honest thoughts from while I was playing. I didn't read him as having the Ace, and:
    RaiseThaFlag bet $3, collected $9, net +$6 (showed hand) [ As 4h ] (two pair, aces and jacks)
    Beanie42 lost $3 [ Kc Qc ] (two pair, kings and jacks)
    Need to work on those reading skills (among others ;) ).
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