NL hand
1/3 NL
SB is tight-passive
EP is super loose-passive donk
I get :ac :kc in MP and make it $15 after EP limper... SB calls... EP calls.
Flop: :ad :9s :2s
SB bets $10, EP calls, Hero raises to $40, both call.
Turn: :8c
Both check, Hero bets $60, both call.
River: :4d
SB bets $75, EP calls, hero....??
SB is tight-passive
EP is super loose-passive donk
I get :ac :kc in MP and make it $15 after EP limper... SB calls... EP calls.
Flop: :ad :9s :2s
SB bets $10, EP calls, Hero raises to $40, both call.
Turn: :8c
Both check, Hero bets $60, both call.
River: :4d
SB bets $75, EP calls, hero....??
Comments
With over $500 in the pot - I might call depending on the table. It sounds like you don't have a shred of respect for any bet the EP guy makes. Still steaming from a bad beat earlier? I probably fold (again refer to the wimp statement above) thinking I am beat here.
Depending on his play, he either has a weak Ace, 2 pr or a set. I lean towards A8.
It's cheap. I'd call just in case my Ace is better. You only have to be right about once in seven times...
stp
Personally, I like to make more of a pot sized raise on the flop when there are muliple players in the hand. You have a made hand which isn't going to get much better -- so lets try and get it settled on the flop. Against a single player, I might play it as you did. But with multiway action the pot gets big real fast and I want to try to avoid having to call large bets because the pot's too big.Â
It's a nice size pot to take down on the flop and it sometimes (when I listen to my reads) lets me get away from the hand without being milked dry on later streets.
So, at the flop there's $80 in the pot when it's $10 to you. I would raise it to $100 right there (80 + 10 = pot, plus the bet 10). Now we find out if the SB was kidding. If he calls, it's really hard for the EP to call with something like 89. If the SB comes over the top, it looks like I'm beat and nnless he's a donk, it's an easy fold here. If the SB and the EP both call here, it's a tough situation. But the pot sized bet makes it much clearer on the turn and river. And, you have position. You get to see the action.
Cheers
Magi
At the river, if your read on the SB is correct, the likelihood of him sticking around with a naked Ace seems very unlikely. I agree that the pot odds dictate calling against most players (even tight aggressive), but if this were my read on the player, I'd fold here and save my chips. You may have the EP beat, but do you really think you're ahead of the SB now?
I included the EP twice. At the flop its $58 as you mention. I find pot sized raises are perfect in the risk/reward equation and used to miscalcuate the pot sized raises. As you mention the pot is $58 when hero is facing a $10 bet. So, it's a total of $68 in the pot, and add that to the bet of $10, it comes to $78. I round it to a raise to $80.  Yep, $100 would be too big vs. the pot. When you say a $60 raise, do you mean $60 + 10 or is it a total of $60. I think a total of $60 isn't enough.
With the a $70 call he has a much tougher decision. Facing $60 is the same. Facing $50 or lower , I feel is too low. The neat thing is for an extra $20 bucks you give the SB an exponential decision -- he must double that to raise.  Also, the EP is going to feel a real squeeze here.
IMO, the pot sized raise --- pot + bet, plus bet is an awesome tool in these situations.
Cheers
Magi
I don't like to challenge the advice of better players, but isn't tight/passive (weak/tight) the wrong type to get overly aggressive against when they're showing some strength? Or am I misunderstanding what weak/tight is? I know you get aggressive initially since you'll usually win it right there, but if they start playing back at you and you don't have a monster, I think it's time to tuck tail and go home. Why invest too much to find out rather than "just enough"?
I love the compliment -- however, I really don't view myself as worse or better than any players. You found an error in my original calc due to me misreading the post! And, thoughtfull discussion is soooo helpfull to me and others.
I used to make this error. You need to add in the $10 for your call to calculate the pot. Then you add the pot on top of the bet to make the "to go" bet. So, it would be $80 to go and an actual raise of $70.
Since I've been doing the math a little better, I have found the raise works wonders when there are deep stacks -- say around 70 BB or more. If someone doesn't have a deep stack then it's a different decision. The reason the extra "bet" makes a big difference is the multiplier effect, you double, and then they have to double to make an addional raise. We are likely splitting hairs on this one, but the concept of a pot-sized raise is really important, especially if the bet into you was a little larger. It really puts a the orginal better to a very hard decision and exerts maximum pressure without overbetting.
Tight passive players don't get into many pots. When they do, they really don't like letting go of hands -- after all they haven't played many hands. It really doesn't mean they have top pair or better -- now a weak tight player, then I'd agree with you. They want to see the hand play out. Exterting maximum pressure -- without overbetting -- is key. If they continue betting, then it should send of huge alarm bells, and you can get away from the hand. And loose passive players really don't like letting go of hands as well. Facing a $70 raise is a big number -- they've invested $25 bucks. I think facing a $60 raise here could do the job, but I'm in there for the extra $10 bucks because there's two players in the pot. The main reason is if SB wants to re-raise they better have a big hand -- two pair, or better. They need to make it total of $150 instead of $320. The extra $10 forces make their raise $20 more. And, now they could be facing an all-in re-raise since you were the pre-flop raisor.
Ugh, if you never challenge the status quo when is there ever progress?
LOL - I agree. The reason I don't like to is because I'm usually the one who's wrong
Right up to the point when the SB leads out the river I was 100% sure I was ahead... then that feeling went into the toilet!!!
I folded and watched SB show AT and EP show A5... (god-bless EP)...oooooppps!
How many chances to win this pot did I flounder!!.... Let's see... on the flop (as mentioned) if I raise to $80-90 I probably take it down there... on the turn (with now ~$165) my bet of $60 was too weak... and now on the river (with now almost $500 in the pot), I fold for $75 more!!! STUPID STUPID STUPID.
Thanks for the shoulder!!
Thank god for what? You folded the winner there..
A5 does not make anything more than a pair of Aces 5 kicker.. AT is a losing hand as well to AK... Bad fold indeed..With 500 in the pot you have to call that bet.. afterall you bet it all the way then fold the river to small bet. We all make dumb mistakes at sometime...
Good luck,
Pokerkid1215