Low Limit Holdem Hand That's Been Bothering Me
Underground 4 8 1/2 kill game, this is a 4 8 round.
....I'm not too sure how I feel about. UTG has not played a hand for 4 orbits or so (he is reading the paper) and raises UTG...6-7 callers and I have KQo in the SB and muck. I would call with 56s in this position, but KQo has too many ways of being dominated here. Of course flop is KQQ. Would have been an ok pot. I call right away with KQs, but not sure about the fold there. Obviously worried about AA, KK, QQ, AK from UTG. Turns out it was checked around on the flop, then checked on the turn by the raiser and taken down my a single turn bet when someone paired the turn card. Very strange hand for this table...
Opinions?
....I'm not too sure how I feel about. UTG has not played a hand for 4 orbits or so (he is reading the paper) and raises UTG...6-7 callers and I have KQo in the SB and muck. I would call with 56s in this position, but KQo has too many ways of being dominated here. Of course flop is KQQ. Would have been an ok pot. I call right away with KQs, but not sure about the fold there. Obviously worried about AA, KK, QQ, AK from UTG. Turns out it was checked around on the flop, then checked on the turn by the raiser and taken down my a single turn bet when someone paired the turn card. Very strange hand for this table...
Opinions?
Comments
I rarely lay down K-Qo for a single raise in limit poker (ever since I Daniel N told me he doesn't).
You hand will be easy to define post flop and relatively easy to get away from.
He could be raising with J-J and then, as more and more callers enter the pot they will have wider and wider ranges of hands.
I don't like it. I am uncomfortable. But, I am gong to see the flop.
2 or 3 callers I still fold.
I'm curious, how is it easy to get away from? If you flop your pair, the pots so big you are stuck going to the river or even peeling one off with the overcards...
Now, I can understand wanting to call with 56s because that's a simple hand to dump when the flop misses, but I can't see the same argument for large unsuited connectors.
Really? Or are you saying you'd rarely lay it down for a single bet (ie due to the good price you're getting from being in the blinds). This specific example of the UTG raise with multiple callers, makes the pot odds very tempting to come in. Given an UTG raise (from a tight player) and being second to act, I'd say cold-calling 2 there is a recipe for disaster (especially if it gets 3 bet behind you). Just curious as to your line of thinking...
why?
Overall I think that, if played well post-flop, K-Q will show a profit. In this case, in particular, since the game is $4-8 and since the game is playing like a typical $4-8 (6 or 7 callers of a raise) then there is some implied odds as well. K-Q will play fairly well in a multi-way pot.
But, it depends.
This guy had been reading the paper for 45 mins or so and hadn't played a hand at all for about an hour. I have played 4 handed 10 20 before with the UTG raiser and know that he is a simple ABC player -- ie I run him over shorthanded. Most ABC players are raising QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ in this spot, especially those reading the paper and then suddenly interested in a hand. KQs, I call. KQo is not that easy to get away from out of position and I feel could be a money loser given this set of circumstances. I don't play an especially tight game preflop, I play my cards as they relate to the current circumstances at the table, and don't generally let go of KQo for a single raise in most low limit loose situations, but this was kind of an exception due to position, player, etc...that's why it kind of nagged at me afterwards.
I think that the implied odds are there more with lower suited connectors in this position as the risk of being dominated is taken out of the equation. Given that it's a low limit game and some people are calling down with 2nd or 3rd pair, how can you get away from this hand on a Q hi board, even if the initial raiser is taking initiative, given that there will likely be 3-4 players at showdown at times. Most of these players are weak, there aren't going to be alot of turn and river raises, so youi are stuck showing down if 3-4 players make it to the river.
Thanks for all the feedback so far.
Like I said, I'd rather call 1.5 bets (SB) wayyyyyyyy out of position with 56s or JTs, etc in this game...I feel that suited cards are much better in this situation.
Does it really matter what he has. Your looking to flop a monster.
The only monster you can realistically flop is two pair and thats a 50 to 1 shot. Regardless of how loose the game is, theres no way you are making up 100SB-150SB
If this is what you are realistically looking to flop, you've made a massive error by entering the pot in the first place. The combination of times you flop an inside draw sure doesn't make up for the 7 to 1 you put in preflop. If you can't play this hand when you make the K or Q you probably can't play it at all longterm profitably.
So in that case you call with KJo, KTo as well, correct?
uhh... no.
The point is that you have 6-7 callers. Your getting about 9-1 on money....easy call. Even if the utg is a donk, with 6-7 callers your still a dog and have to hit a pretty dam good flop.
Then why play hands like 67s?
5 hours later:
Ok, you changed your mind on the hand. That's fine, just don't represent it as if you didn't.
Uhh.. calling with a good hand in great position is a mistake? I assume you are implying a 3-bet?
nope, im advocating a fold against a tag raiser with KQo. its not a good hand against the range of hands a tag is going to raise UTG.