Did I play this right?

zero

***** Hand History for Game 3126262316 *****
$1/$2 Texas Hold'em - Thursday, December 01, 15:03:57 EDT 2005
Table Table 65205 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: Gschmeidiga ( $45.50 )
Seat 3: FatDownSouth ( $14.50 )
Seat 6: zero_333 ( $89 )
Seat 7: SonicUtes ( $61.50 )
Seat 8: CNestor ( $19.50 )
Seat 9: RaoulDuke26 ( $59 )
Seat 10: naacp7 ( $93.24 )
Seat 2: brunabeans ( $49 )
Seat 5: ChevyP ( $47.50 )
RaoulDuke26 posts small blind [$0.50].
naacp7 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to zero_333 [ Ac Jh ]
>You have options at Beginners #1066610 Table!.
Gschmeidiga folds.
brunabeans folds.
FatDownSouth calls [$1].
ChevyP calls [$1].
zero_333 raises [$2].
SonicUtes folds.
CNestor folds.
RaoulDuke26 folds.
naacp7 folds.
FatDownSouth calls [$1].
ChevyP calls [$1].
>You have options at Beginners #1066610 Table!.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, 9s, Js ]
FatDownSouth bets [$1].
ChevyP calls [$1].
zero_333 calls [$1].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
FatDownSouth bets [$2].
ChevyP calls [$2].
zero_333 raises [$4].
FatDownSouth calls [$2].
ChevyP calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ 2d ]
FatDownSouth checks.
ChevyP checks.
zero_333 bets [$2].
FatDownSouth calls [$2].
ChevyP calls [$2].


On the flop I was initially going to raise to make a high spade pay for the draw, but then I remembered Sklansky in TOP saying that raising to protect your hand on the flop in a big pot is useless because the other players are still getting proper odds to draw. So I called, prayed for no spade on the turn, and raised it then to cut down the odds severely for any spade. The second 9 scared me a bit, but I thought that if I get reraised its an easy fold. So I basically just want to know if this was the right situation for what I read in TOP.

ScottyZ

Without looking ahead.

zero wrote:

***** Hand History for Game 3126262316 *****
$1/$2 Texas Hold'em - Thursday, December 01, 15:03:57 EDT 2005
Table Table 65205 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: Gschmeidiga ( $45.50 )
Seat 3: FatDownSouth ( $14.50 )
Seat 6: zero_333 ( $89 )
Seat 7: SonicUtes ( $61.50 )
Seat 8: CNestor ( $19.50 )
Seat 9: RaoulDuke26 ( $59 )
Seat 10: naacp7 ( $93.24 )
Seat 2: brunabeans ( $49 )
Seat 5: ChevyP ( $47.50 )
RaoulDuke26 posts small blind [$0.50].
naacp7 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to zero_333 [ Ac Jh ]
>You have options at Beginners #1066610 Table!.
Gschmeidiga folds.
brunabeans folds.
FatDownSouth calls [$1].
ChevyP calls [$1].
zero_333 raises [$2].

I would just call here. It's a close decision between calling and raising, and it also depends on exactly how the previous limpers, the players left to act behind you, and the big blind play. Generally, a raise is best with a good (but not monsterous) hand if it tends to shut out good players and keep in bad players, and not the other way around. Against unknown/typical players, I would just call.

SonicUtes folds.
CNestor folds.
RaoulDuke26 folds.
naacp7 folds.
FatDownSouth calls [$1].
ChevyP calls [$1].
>You have options at Beginners #1066610 Table!.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, 9s, Js ]
FatDownSouth bets [$1].
ChevyP calls [$1].
zero_333 calls [$1].

I would fold TPTK here. Again, I think it is a close decision, this time between all three options. Calling here with the intention of raising the turn if a non-dangerous card arrives is a solid, even if a little conservative, play.

** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
FatDownSouth bets [$2].
ChevyP calls [$2].
zero_333 raises [$4].

Given the actual action to this point, I think this is another close decision, in this case between calling and raising. I would lean towards raising. One might argue for a call in closing position (and a probable river call to close the action) since this may be a better use of 2 big bets (in total) than getting 3-bet on the turn and having to throw your hand away (or make crying calls through the nose to find out if your hand is good).

FatDownSouth calls [$2].
ChevyP calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ 2d ]
FatDownSouth checks.
ChevyP checks.
zero_333 bets [$2].

IMO, the only relatively clear decision during the hand. After both opponents call the turn and then check the river, I would go ahead and bet the river.

ScottyZ

Unknown

I raise the flop (folding to a 3-bet), call the turn (or bet if it is checked to me, folding to a c/r), and call the river (or bet if it is checked to me, probably calling a c/r). I read what you wrote about Sklansky, and it makes sense, but that's how I would have played the hand nonetheless. I don't think you MIS-played it all... just another way of gettin' er done.

As Scotty pointed out, this is an interesting hand because you have close decisions on all streets.

ScoobyD

Good hand. As echo'd previously I think it's a close decision all the way through. I think I like your line on the flop of just calling though since it will be next to impossible to get rid of anybody with a T, a J or a decent spade.

Preflop: Obvious raise for value, you have position and you don't want the blinds and more limpers coming in behind you. You don't want a giant multiway pot, so I hate the idea of just calling here. Force the idiots behind you to call 2 cold if they want to play.

Flop: Tough decision. Raising won't get rid of either player and there's a lot of cards that can hurt you. I think I like your line of calling and waiting to see what the turn brings.

Turn: Not a horrible card, but semi dangerous. Seems unlikely the caller has a 9 or a flush at this point, so it looks like he's still drawing. I like the raise, but if you get 3 bet, I think you have to dump it.

River. Given the river rag, and the action before you, I'd say it's a pretty easy value bet...

NH.

SirWatts

I thiink you played this hand very well. This looks like the ideal time to wait until the turn to raise (as you said you have an easy fold to a 3-bet), and then an easy value bet on the end. I would play it the same on all streets.

Flint Bones

I agree with the play. I probably wouldn't have raised pre-flop with AJo in mid position in a limit game.

I like the play on the flop.

The river would have been a tough call for me, but I probably would have called it.

I like the bet on the river. I would fold if both players re-raised.

BBC Z

On the flop I was initially going to raise to make a high spade pay for the draw, but then I remembered Sklansky in TOP saying that raising to protect your hand on the flop in a big pot is useless because the other players are still getting proper odds to draw. So I called, prayed for no spade on the turn, and raised it then to cut down the odds severely for any spade.

I like the way you played it, but I hate your reasoning for your play.

The reason you don't raise the flop is because your pot equity will take a huge swing on the turn card. It will either jump to 50%-60% when a blank falls or it will drop to 0%-10% when the fourth spade falls. This is straight SSHE. Pass on the small edge to take a large edge on future streets.

Given two callers and you are last to act, there is ZERO way to protect your hand. A bet will give your opponents 10 to 1 to call. Raising them on the turn may make thier total bet odds incorrect on the street for a single card flush draw, but thier immediate pot odds to call your raise will be fine.

Finally, you can't "Cut down the odds severly" for a spade. At worst, the villians are getting 3 to 1 bet odds to chase a 5 to 1 shot with the pot odds making up the difference. Your turn bet is for value.

In this pot, when you say that you want to protect you hand, you are actually trying to protect it from the inside straight draw and the two pair draw, not the flush draw.

I agree with the play. I probably wouldn't have raised pre-flop with AJo in mid position in a limit game.

Too tight. It's a solid UTG raise in most games.

Flint Bones

BBC Z wrote:

Too tight. It's a solid UTG raiser in most games.

Curious. When isn't it a solid raise? I somewhat disagree but I am not sold on it nor do I follow that strategy all the time. But since you said most, I am curious as to your reasoning.

BBC Z

AJo is likely amongst the top two hands delt to the table for that orbit. You know the presence of both an ace and a jack, it makes it less likely your opponents will hold one. If they do, it's far more likely they hold a worse kicker.

If you won't raise a few limpers with a good hand like AJo, you are too tight.

Flint Bones

I raise in later postions but with 6 players still to follow I hesitate. I think I got this from Jennifer Harman's Limit stuff. I don't know. But still it can be a weak hand. I think AJ may be over valued.

Unknown

The reason you don't raise the flop is because your pot equity will take a huge swing on the turn card. It will either jump to 50%-60% when a blank falls or it will drop to 0%-10% when the fourth spade falls. This is straight SSHE. Pass on the small edge to take a large edge on future streets.

Given two callers and you are last to act, there is ZERO way to protect your hand. A bet will give your opponents 10 to 1 to call. Raising them on the turn may make thier total bet odds incorrect on the street for a single card flush draw, but thier immediate pot odds to call your raise will be fine.

Finally, you can't "Cut down the odds severly" for a spade. At worst, the villians are getting 3 to 1 bet odds to chase a 5 to 1 shot with the pot odds making up the difference. Your turn bet is for value.

In this pot, when you say that you want to protect you hand, you are actually trying to protect it from the inside straight draw and the two pair draw, not the flush draw.

vn BBC

SirWatts

To put this hand in another perspective. On the flop there is a good chance your opponents are drawing to a combined 21+ outs on you even if you are ahead, making you a 2:1 dog even if you have the best hand at the moment, and you can easily be behind. Your equity in this pot has to be well below one third on the flop, but you are getting the pot odds to call and hope you hit your "blank on the turn draw". Once you do that your equity should be around 50% as BBC mentioned so you have an easy value raise against 2 players. Then on the river you have an easy value bet once another blank comes off.

ScoobyD

Back to the AJo debate:

I raise in later postions but with 6 players still to follow I hesitate. I think I got this from Jennifer Harman's Limit stuff. I don't know. But still it can be a weak hand. I think AJ may be over valued.

Ditto. I haven't read her book, the only marginal situations I find with AJo is what to do with it in EP (opening the pot). I know Jones says to fold it in EP, but that seems too tight (unless it's an extremely tight table). Limping in general seems horrible, because it's not a hand you really want to play with a lot of players limping in behind you. And Jones main argument against raising it is that will tend to fold weaker aces (which you obviously want), but will never fold hands like AK or AQ (this is the hand that always nails me, since most passives are hesitant to 3 bet AQ, and as a result, I they either call me down with the better hand the whole way, or raise me on the flop and I never give them respect for a big ace since they didn't 3 bet preflop). Aside from those specific situations, I still think AJo will win more than it looses in the typical LL game (even in EP).

So I guess it probably comes down to table conditions then right? Loose games, it's a raise, tight it's a fold. It's the in between games are where it gets interesting... Thoughts?

BBC Z

I raise in later postions but with 6 players still to follow I hesitate. I think I got this from Jennifer Harman's Limit stuff. I don't know. But still it can be a weak hand. I think AJ may be over valued.

When was the last time Jennifer Harmon played any significant number hands of 1/2 limit?

So I guess it probably comes down to table conditions then right? Loose games, it's a raise, tight it's a fold. It's the in between games are where it gets interesting... Thoughts?

I couldn't possibly disagree more. Why are you not looking to raise people who did nothing more than limp? Even if it's a tight table, even more reason to raise a PREMIUM hand preflop. Tight games are won by ruthless aggression. Loose games are won by showdown. In both games, AJ has an edge.

SirWatts

Yeah I'm defiinitely raising AJ here. People limp in with a lot of crap, espcially in low limit.

Flint Bones

Then we have different views on premium hands. AJ is a great hand in later positions not in early to mid.

ScoobyD

Why are you not looking to raise people who did nothing more than limp? Even if it's a tight table, even more reason to raise a PREMIUM hand preflop.

Should have clarified better I guess. I'd raise AJo in a tight game with limpers ahead. I meant specifically what to do with AJo opening the pot in EP in a tight game.

BBC Z

I meant specifically what to do with AJo opening the pot in EP in a tight game.

Even more reason to take the initiative early.

SirWatts

I fold AJo UTG in a 10 handed game and usually UTG+1 but I open raise it UTG+2. In aloose game there is probably value to raising it UTG too because you get called by so many worse hands but in a tight game you will only get 3-bet by hands that have you dominated. However behind 2 limpers who have shown weakness I'm trying to isolate them every time from MP.

ScoobyD

Even more reason to take the initiative early.

I've thought about that too, but I guess it just seems like you're either going to win tiny pots (ie. the blinds) often, or set yourself up to lose bigger pots (when you get 3 bet by dominating hands). So the question is can you pick up enough small pots for raising to be +EV. In a tight game I start wondering whether it becomes profitable to actually play crazy LAGish in EP, just because so many rocks will give so much respect to an EP raise...