[SPLIT] Re: Floor ruling at Caesars. Right, wrong or other?
I'd like to put out another question in regards to a hand I witnessed on my recent Vegas trip...is there any ruling about something like this?
Friendly table, full 10 players, mostly feeling really good! A large pot ends up headsup and player A bets, player B calls the river. Player A does not show his cards but instead holds them out, looks at them and says 'Oh, I hit my straight!'. Player B shakes his head in disgust and drops his cards face down out of the dealers reach but partially crossing the betting line. Now at every dealer change they stress that anything across the line is considered a bet or raise yet on more then one occasion they have allowed a newbie to take back their chips when they expressed they did not want to raise, indicating to me that they don't follow the rules to the letter (it was also 2/4 at the Imperial Palace). As soon as player B's hand hits the felt Player A says...'Oh, no I didn't hit it' and scoops the pot, the dealer did not award it. Player B challenged and the dealer said he mucked and did not call the floor over. As an aside player A was playing and his wife was playing beside him and I overheard them discussing hands, one would bet the other fold...I firmly believe they were working together although I don't believe they were good players and in the long run they lost their chips but I believe they were colluding. People mis-read the board all the time but in this case I think he deliberately mislead the other player. However I think the dealers decision was correct.....always turn your cards face up in front of you!!!! Just wondering if there is anything cut and dried about this?
Friendly table, full 10 players, mostly feeling really good! A large pot ends up headsup and player A bets, player B calls the river. Player A does not show his cards but instead holds them out, looks at them and says 'Oh, I hit my straight!'. Player B shakes his head in disgust and drops his cards face down out of the dealers reach but partially crossing the betting line. Now at every dealer change they stress that anything across the line is considered a bet or raise yet on more then one occasion they have allowed a newbie to take back their chips when they expressed they did not want to raise, indicating to me that they don't follow the rules to the letter (it was also 2/4 at the Imperial Palace). As soon as player B's hand hits the felt Player A says...'Oh, no I didn't hit it' and scoops the pot, the dealer did not award it. Player B challenged and the dealer said he mucked and did not call the floor over. As an aside player A was playing and his wife was playing beside him and I overheard them discussing hands, one would bet the other fold...I firmly believe they were working together although I don't believe they were good players and in the long run they lost their chips but I believe they were colluding. People mis-read the board all the time but in this case I think he deliberately mislead the other player. However I think the dealers decision was correct.....always turn your cards face up in front of you!!!! Just wondering if there is anything cut and dried about this?
Comments
THE SHOWDOWN
1. To win any part of a pot, a playermust show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.
2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see "Section 11 - Lowball," Rule 15 and Rule 16.)
This sounds like another grey area. Personally I find the angle shooting in part 2) to be the worst part, however if the other players hand hit the muck, it becomes very difficult for the winner to make a claim on the pot. If the hands were still clearly identifiable, I think the winner could ask the dealer to show the "winning hand" since he called. Really it is the dealer's responsibility to award the pot, and the caller should know better than to take a verbal declaration of a hand (from another player) as binding...
Personally, I'd try and avoid awarding pots to angle shooters..
If you think there is a case of collusion, approach the floor and tell them. They can keep track of it and deal with it subtly.
I hate this the most. The dealer has no right to make any decisions like this. I tell people immediately if they don't like what the dealer is deciding to call for the floor or forever hold thier peace. Most players don't know they can do that.
I honestly believe he deliberately miscalled his hand...and I'm surprised the mucker did not fight it, however I had no idea what, if anything, I could do so I stayed out of it. I suspect the mucker just took the dealer for his word as he did not question it further. He was pissed tho and left shortly after...perhaps pissed at himself.....I always lay my cards down face up and show them unless I clearly see my opponents cards and know 100% that I'm beat.....but after 100 cold MGD's it's hard to remember everything!!!