AK hand

I had an AK situation come up today and I'd like some thoughts on it.

It was a 500 player no limit tourney about five minutes before the one hour break. I had about 1800 in chips. With 25/50 blinds, the second player to act with just under 1000 in chips made it 100 to go. I was in the big blind with AK. I raised it to 500 and he called. The flop came Q97 and I moved all in and was called by QJ suited.

Is this a situation where I should either call or move all in before the flop? I like raising here. I felt confident that I had the best hand. But is raising to half my opponent's stack being foolish? What I was thinking was that I was willing to commit all my chips (or more accurately, all of his chips) to my hand, but this is a hand I wouldn't mind some action from (or is it?) and that if I raised only half of his stack as opposed to all of it, he would be more likely to call with an inferior hand. With this hand I figure if I hit and he hits I likely get all his chips. If I hit and he misses I get half his chips. If I miss and he misses I likely get half his chips. If I miss and he hits, I double him up. Presuming he would have folded to an all-in, (he would have folded to an all-in wouldn't he?) getting him to call for half of his chips preflop seems favourable, although higher variance. I guess this may not be the time of the tournament for a high variance play. Is my thinking flawed here? What about on the flop? Should I have check/folded once I missed?

This hand makes me wonder about something from the other perspective. Since I was going all-in on the flop no matter what came, and I think most online players would do the same if they played it as I did preflop, was he correct to call me? In essence, he was getting 11:4 (or 2.75:1) on his money as he could count on me putting in the rest of my chips. I almost never call over a tenth of my stack before the flop. I'll usually either fold or raise. Maybe in certain situations (when the blinds are getting high, but not super high) I should be willing to call between a quarter and half (well, maybe not half) of my stack preflop. The kind of hands I'm thinking of are big card hands like AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ especially suited. I would be calling with the intention of folding if I miss. Usually these hands are easy to throw away before the flop because even if you hit you're only likely to get action from a better hand, but I don't think that's necessarily the case with so much of my stack already in the pot. Often, especially online, the preflop raiser will be willing to throw in a big bet on the flop no matter how bad it is for their hand. You wouldn't call if you were sure the raiser had a strong hand. What do you guys think?

Comments

  • I know others here have a lot more experience then me and I look forward to their replies but from my perspective, in that position, I don't like getting that aggressive with AK early on unless the one who made it 100 to go has been playing really loose. If villain has been in every hand then I don't mind popping him pre flop. What type of player was villain?
    From the big blind, if I am closing the action and its only the two of us I may just make a small raise or even call his raise. I want to see a flop and I prefer playing small pots early on. No matter what hit I might lead out because if he missed he may fold. If he calls I proceed with caution. If he moves all in I'm outta here. I don't like huge pots early unless I am confident I am way ahead, which I feel I would rarely be with A high.
    If he started the hand with T1000 and called a T500 raise I think he's seeing this hand through to the end and your A high all-in is getting called.
    Oh well the bright side is you still have chips left and aren't out. I'm assuming he took it down.

    On another note, I have an easier time reading hand histories then long paragraphs describing the action (unless its very detailed and well laid out) so I may have missed something here.
  • I think you played the hand well. Raising enough that you're committed on any flop is a good way to play AK. His preflop call is terrible, he has to hit the flop AND hope you have AK for it to work. Most the time he hits the flop and you show him AA or something anyways, and hitting flops is hard enough since if he flops middle pair he's dead as well, so it's less than 2:1 he outflops you here. Even when he does you're 25% to draw out on him when he hits 1 pair. A lot of the time he will call with something like AQ or AJ here and he has to hit his kicker since flopping an A gets him broke. If he calls with a mid pair you just might bluff him off on a flop you miss, but worst case it's the same as a race which isn't terrible. I think your line is best because:
    1) You would play AA,KK,QQ the same, the overbet push is AK or a middle pair very often.
    2) It gives him the chance to make a 2nd mistake by calling with things like AQ, AJ, KQ, QJ. I think this is +EV over pushing though as you said the variance is higher.
  • I think you played this hand fairly well, except you don't even think about what does this guy have. I think your preflop reraise was perhaps a little big, becuase with AK preflop I think you want callers and a reraise to say 250, or 300 will give you the same information about your opponents hand here. I think that once he called you reraise to 500 you should have slowed down and thought to yourself here's a pretty decent sized stack, calling 50% of his stack i think right there you are able to put him on a fairly small range of hands this being AK(same as you, fairly unlikely) AQ, AJ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, also smaller pairs aren't that unlikely depending on the player. So when you miss the flop completely, and if you have put your opponent on one of these hands and the flop has come Q97 you have to think that you're at best ahead if the guy has AJ (which i think is very unlikely because AJ is a hard hand to call a big rereaise with pre flop), a split with the guy in the slim case that he has AK too, and more than likely you are behend to an overpair, a set, or top pair. I like checking here just for this reason, even though you are still 25% to win the hand, you are most likely way behind and this seems like a waste of chips to just put him all in, i think because it's still early in the tourney you would probably want to keep what chips you can and 1300 is a pretty good stack with the blinds at 25-50.
  • Forgot to add this: even though he didn't have one of the expected hands, you were still behind... tough luck i suppose, but i think still it's pretty easy to determine that you are behind in the hand and even if you bet with 50% of the guys chips in the pot you aren't gonna fold him.
  • When you bet out on the flop this looks suspicious. If you had a hand you might be more inclined to check and induce a bluff from your opponent. When he called your raise preflop LOOK OUT........At this point it doesnt matter if he should have called your raise or not he has half his stack in there and chances are hes not going anywhere. He is at the stage where he says "hell with it I'm going with this hand". You only have A high after the flop so and have now have tangled youself up in the hand. So in the end I like a push preflop or a simple call. Don't be worried about just calling preflop in this spot(I know I know you have the best hand and should raise). But lets say you just call and flop an A or K, you check it to him and he is most certainly going to bet since he is only against the BB (chances are the BB doesnt have a hand). Then you raise him allin. Now if you miss the flop, again you check he bets and you fold. You are only risking $50 with this play and the reason I suggest playing this way is 1) terrible position 2) true strength of your hand is well hidden 3) you dont need to race but you can make a nice trap play here.
    CONSERVE CHIPS

    Wader
  • But is raising to half my opponent's stack being foolish?

    I like flipping coins for around half my stack in tournaments. Your bet forced him to commit to the river with his hand preflop while you hold a hand that wants to see 5 cards.
    but i think still it's pretty easy to determine that you are behind in the hand and even if you bet with 50% of the guys chips in the pot you aren't gonna fold him.

    Villian pushes if hero checks almost 100% of the time anyway. The only argument I can make for folding is that the flop pretty much contains every card that the villian can possibly have. You hold AK so his likelyhood of an A or K is low. Q or J and any pocket he's ahead. You've likely got 5 outs for the pair draw, maybe 5.5 combined with maybe 20% chance of holding the best hand gives you the pot odds to call the flop anyway.
    suggest playing this way is 1) terrible position 2) true strength of your hand is well hidden 3) you dont need to race but you can make a nice trap play here.

    I can only agree with your logic of not raising if Villian has more chips than us. We've got a premium hand against a player with about half our stack. Why are we avoiding a flip? Position? Doesn't matter, if villian wants to play he's pushing. Slow playing? Villians got no chips, no implied odds.
  • I think you played the hand well. Raising enough that you're committed on any flop is a good way to play AK. His preflop call is terrible, he has to hit the flop AND hope you have AK for it to work. Most the time he hits the flop and you show him AA or something anyways, and hitting flops is hard enough since if he flops middle pair he's dead as well, so it's less than 2:1 he outflops you here. Even when he does you're 25% to draw out on him when he hits 1 pair. A lot of the time he will call with something like AQ or AJ here and he has to hit his kicker since flopping an A gets him broke. If he calls with a mid pair you just might bluff him off on a flop you miss, but worst case it's the same as a race which isn't terrible. I think your line is best because:
    1) You would play AA,KK,QQ the same, the overbet push is AK or a middle pair very often.
    2) It gives him the chance to make a 2nd mistake by calling with things like AQ, AJ, KQ, QJ. I think this is +EV over pushing though as you said the variance is higher.

    Great analysis. I'm going to have to start reading responses now to keep from duplicating advice.
  • BBC Z wrote:
    suggest playing this way is 1) terrible position 2) true strength of your hand is well hidden 3) you dont need to race but you can make a nice trap play here.

    I can only agree with your logic of not raising if Villian has more chips than us. We've got a premium hand against a player with about half our stack. Why are we avoiding a flip? Position? Doesn't matter, if villian wants to play he's pushing. Slow playing? Villians got no chips, no implied odds.
    Yes it is nice to see all 5 cards with AK but for $50 hero has a chance at taking a good portion of his chips anyways. Lets see......hero will see aboout 73% of the hand on the flop for $50, those last two cards represent another 27%. So is hero willing to risk another $800 for those last two cards if hero misses flop.
    Position does not matter ONLY if you push. Implied odds...........I'd say there is implied odds if you limp.
    Part of the power of AK is the fold equity that you get from it and in this hand I think there is very little fold equity. Anybody that raises(10% of stack) in early position with this hand is going all the way. I try to stay away from races and look for ways to get in cheap and try to trap. This is a perfect opportunity to do this.......you might not make as much but you are not risking 1/2 your stack either.

    Wader
  • I'm all for avoiding coinflips but there's a good chance we have him dominated here. If we have no fold equity against his QJ so be it. I want him to put his chips in preflop because 2 times out of 3 those are coming my way. Pushing these types of edges are how you get chips. If there is an ace or king on the flop how are we going to get his chips then? Best to make him commit before he sees the flop. There are times for playing more carefully with AK but when our opponent is on a short stack is not one of them.
  • SirWatts wrote:
      If there is an ace or king on the flop how are we going to get his chips then?  Best to make him commit before he sees the flop.  There are times for playing more carefully with AK but when our opponent is on a short stack is not one of them.   
    The villan would (should) represent the A or K in this hand if checked to him.......considering that its folded to the BB who just calls.
    Im not saying that the hand was played incorrectly by any means. I'm just suggesting different ways of playing it. Like I said before either call or push. Our villan still has about half our stack....if we lose this hand it is definately going to hurt.
    BBC said that he can only agree with this play if the villan has more chips.......thats strange because if the villan had 1800 and I had about 1000 THIS is where I would definately push.
  • The villan would (should) represent the A or K in this hand if checked to him.......considering that its folded to the BB who just calls.

    Yes, but that will depend on how aggressive he is. A passive will only be giving action if they hit. And if the player's aggressive how are we to know the AK isn't the best hand unimproved? I agree the call is lower variance, but I tend to get more aggressive with AK when I know I have my opponent easily covered.
  • BBC said that he can only agree with this play if the villan has more chips.......thats strange because if the villan had 1800 and I had about 1000 THIS is where I would definately push.

    You want to have the option to fold if you don't like the flop. Isn't that the whole point of not going crazy preflop? When hero is the chip leader, you have chips to gamble. When you are the smaller stack, you want to play small pots to rebuild.

    Small stack isn't exactly under blind pressure yet, he's got 20BB. We're not desperate for coin flips yet.
  • One of the questions I ask myself is, "Do I want to play a big pot or a small pot?" With A-K out of position, you very probably want to play a small pot. It's often a reverse implied odds question. So, what to do to eliminate those ugle reverse implied odds?

    One option is to simply move in pre-flop. This is not a bad option in this spot. You are moving in his stack size (850 behind after his raise to 100). This has the effect of eliminating positional advantage, maximizing fold equity, and seeing all five cards with A-K craves if it is called.

    Calling? I don't like this play. If you call and hit your hand, how will you make any money? You will not make much from Q-Q or T-T or the like. You will not get any action unless you are beat.

    A smaller raise? I think this is the best option. I like raising enough that you add some fold equity, but not so much that you are commited to play for all his chips. I like making it 400 to go. If he calls the pot is 850 and he has 450 behind. And, if he calls, I am done with the hand unless I hit it on the flop. If he is willing to put 1/2 his stack in then he has "something." I think that fold equity post-flop is very slight in this case and I can checking and folding or betting out if I hit. I am not going to bluff out or position with a naked ace.
  • OK........fair enough I lay down my sword (pen) (( keyboard))
  • i dont think there was anything wrong with how you played it.So many people out there totally lose it and go all in and cross there fingers and pray.But thats why its called gambling.
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