now HERE's a fun hand!

the_main

comments on any street welcomed -  this hand had me scratching my head the whole way

PokerStars Game #3161274167: Tournament #15639077, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2005/11/26 - 02:56:10 (ET)
Table '15639077 18' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: junglist12 (1860 in chips)
Seat 2: NoRook (3340 in chips)
Seat 3: alicalif (2700 in chips)
Seat 4: the_main (3020 in chips)
Seat 5: dfresh8217 (5115 in chips)
Seat 6: maxv2 (2500 in chips)
Seat 7: ChrisM18 (1195 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 8: Edhopar (2380 in chips)
Seat 9: rburgio (4670 in chips)
rburgio: posts small blind 25
junglist12: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to the_main [9d 9s]   
NoRook: folds
alicalif: raises 250 to 300    -   I hadnt been at the table long at all (2 orbits), and this was his third raise, twice as large as any other raise...   No clue what to put him on quite honestly.... low PP or 2 high cards more likely...  Folding seems too weak here, so....
the_main: calls 300   
dfresh8217: folds
maxv2: folds
ChrisM18: folds
Edhopar: folds
rburgio: folds
junglist12: folds
*** FLOP *** [4c 8d Td]   - I like the texture, so i fire
alicalif: checks
the_main: bets 300
alicalif: calls 300
*** TURN *** [4c 8d Td] [Qs]
alicalif: checks
the_main: checks   -  Don't ask why but I had this strange feeling I was being set-up here, so i checked behind....   should I have fired again?
*** RIVER *** [4c 8d Td Qs] [Jh] -
alicalif: bets 750 (after going a few seconds into his timebank)
the_main - ????    I hit the gutshot and now hes betting.... whats your move?

puckbag

Im smelling a k here for ali....raised before the flop, made the classic ak call after he missed the flop because ak looks to good to fold sometimes, i think if you bet the turn you may have won it right there but i thing you self admitedly said you made a bad play there, he hits his ace high straight on the river and the rest is history right?? either that or im totally wrong and he slow played a set of fours lol

the_main

I didn't say checking the turn was a mistake - there are a tonne of hands that have me beat here.

It may very well have been a mistake, but I admit to nothing!

SirWatts

I call.  I don't think you get called by enough hands you beat to raise and it's not unreasonable to think he has AK.  Given the size of the pot you're easily good here often enough to call though.  This can easily be a bluff induced by your check behind or a value bet by many hands like two pair or a set.  Maybe I'm a pussy and i should be raising for value here but I stick with call.  I like the check behind on the turn fwiw, betting and getting raised would be terrible I like trying to induce a bluff if a safe card hits and you do have 4-6 outs if you're behind.

specialK

I think call. I don't know if like your check behind on the turn, to me it seems like this guy was trying to trap you with a set or something like that but at the same time... your fllop bet of 300 into a pot of 675 you can't really rule out AK or any of the other many hands you could have initially put him on... so on the river basically you haven't really gotten any information about the guys hand, and here you are faced with a value bet of 750 into a 1275 pot, well this would have me tihnking, well damn, i wish i put out a bet on the turn to get some more information, becuase i don't really know whether i'm beat or not... i think that the thing that would make me call here is that he didn't lead out on the flop... something that i see happen alot when people have AK and they miss the flop... so he may have been trying to trap you with trips or an unlikely two pairs... so i would definately call... what was the actual outcome, what did he have?

SirWatts

Ooh I misread the action I thought you donked into him on the flop, that flop check is very suspicious. I think I want to minraise the riiver and throw up if he pushes while I pay it off. This looks a lot more like a set then AK to me. Who raises to 300 preflop and then doesn't fire again on that flop with AK? Also, I make a slightly larger flop bet . 400-450 seems right.

the_main

i just wanted to get a couple more opinions before i posted results....

CrazyJoe113

id say it's a call, his going into the timebank seems to be figuring if there's any way you have a 9, i smell a missed flush draw or maybe AK, but AK i think you have to pay it off.

wader

I was originnaly typing that you should fold.......but I didn't realize that you had a str8. Thats a call for me. 9k is highly unlikely, so there is really only one hand (AK) that you are afraid of. Im going to take a wild guess at this one A9D.

Wader

SirWatts

Oh that timebank thing is suspicious 'm defintiely not gonna raise now. Put me down for a call (I would do this anwyays but now i don't even consider raising).

the_main

We think alike. I was totally ready to value bet this until he went into the tank when he had been acting quickly. I never intended to fold here, my descision was raise/call.

I called expecting to see JT, a set, or AK. He showed AK.

I think I played the hand fine and just got unlucky....

specialK

I think you just simply got unlucky, however i had a feeling it was AK just since yo u are posting this hand on the forum. i think it's very hard to put your oponent on AK after he checks the flop. You didn't mention suits, was it AdKd? by any chance.

Dave Scharf

I think I played the hand fine and just got unlucky....

Barry Greenstein has a concept in "Ace on the River" that I like. He talks about "perfect play" and "the right play given what you know at the time.

Perfect play if what you would do if you knew your opponents cards. So, in this case, the perfect play would have been to bet enough on the turn that you were giving him bad odds on his 10 outs. But, little enough he would call. On the river, the perfect play is to fold.

Could you or should you have been able to get closer to the perfect play?

I think you should have bet the turn. If nothing else it will completely define your hand. It's hard to imagine him making a big play on you with a check raise bluff given the progression of the hand. So, if he c/r then you fold. If he calls you check down the river. If he calls and bets the river you have a tough laydown, but it might be possible since the betting on the turn clearly tells you that he EXPECTS to get called on the river. You are either splitting the pot or losing. Given his pre-flop raise, a nine seems unlikely. I am not saying I could get away from the hand on the river, but I am saying I might be able to. If you check the turn you almost have to call since you have, in fact, induced a bluff and then his a straight.

the_main

Dave Scharf wrote:

I think I played the hand fine and just got unlucky....

Barry Greenstein has a concept in "Ace on the River" that I like. He talks about "perfect play" and "the right play given what you know at the time.

Perfect play if what you would do if you knew your opponents cards. So, in this case, the perfect play would have been to bet enough on the turn that you were giving him bad odds on his 10 outs. But, little enough he would call. On the river, the perfect play is to fold.

Could you or should you have been able to get closer to the perfect play?

I think you should have bet the turn. If nothing else it will completely define your hand. It's hard to imagine him making a big play on you with a check raise bluff given the progression of the hand. So, if he c/r then you fold. If he calls you check down the river. If he calls and bets the river you have a tough laydown, but it might be possible since the betting on the turn clearly tells you that he EXPECTS to get called on the river. You are either splitting the pot or losing. Given his pre-flop raise, a nine seems unlikely. I am not saying I could get away from the hand on the river, but I am saying I might be able to. If you check the turn you almost have to call since you have, in fact, induced a bluff and then his a straight.

Excellent insight.

Also it was AKo.