What gives you your edge?
Ok..
I've heard from far too many people that they believe they have an edge when they sit down at any poker table. Ask all ten players at a table, and they'll each tell you they have the edge. It's been on my mind awhile now about what gives a person an edge (or makes them think they have edges that don't exist).. I'm curious to hear from the forum.. When you sit at a:
A) Limit ring game
NL Ring Game
C) MTT
What's so damn special about you that you think yer any better than the other shlubs at the table?
Answers like "I'm tight aggressive" don't count.
I've heard from far too many people that they believe they have an edge when they sit down at any poker table. Ask all ten players at a table, and they'll each tell you they have the edge. It's been on my mind awhile now about what gives a person an edge (or makes them think they have edges that don't exist).. I'm curious to hear from the forum.. When you sit at a:
A) Limit ring game
NL Ring GameC) MTT
What's so damn special about you that you think yer any better than the other shlubs at the table?
Answers like "I'm tight aggressive" don't count.
Comments
A) I'm not sure I have a big edge shorthanded since my confidence there is shot. At a full table I am very patient, I don't get bored and play crap. In a live situation this is not easy for most people. I can make good folds to the passive/predictable players but need to work on calling down the LAGs more in the right situations.
C) Probably my best games. Knowing when to jack up the aggression and figuring out which players this aggression will work best against. Making tough laydowns again, and learning to make some more gutsy calls and plays on people. Play the shortstack very well and have very good understanding of the odds in hot and cold all-in situations. As always, PATIENCE.
Limit ring game:
I like to think that in addition to solid "fundamentals" I have an edge in terms of adapting to different types of games. Â I think many players have a set starting hand guide that they more or less follow in any limit ring game. Â I will adapt and play THE GAME not just my game. Â I am not afraid to play lunatic poker if that is what the game calls for. Â I can play extremely tight as well, if necessary. Â I tend to watch games and get a feel for the game as a whole and decide on the strategy that needs to be played. Â
In some games, you will have 5 players in pre-flop and the betting is capped. Â These are just a little too frequent in the local 4-8 limit games! Â In these games you have to be in there with you 89 soooted. Â These are very high variance games, but they can be very profitable. Â However, if you try to sit back and wait for premium hands, you will miss out on that one monster pot that you would have won when your open ended straight hit on the turn. Â
The point being that many players will say "I cant play 8-9 of spades from the BB where the betting has been capped" Â THe next hand that is capped, you will find that same player in the hand with 44! Â
I do not play much NL ring games so I wont comment.
MTT: (live tourneys)
I have, over the last 6 months, gone from a player who makes the final table with reasonable frequency, but most of the time with a short stack, to a player who makes the final table less frequently but who wins or finishes top 3 more regularly. Â This has resulted in a significant increase in winnings in 2005 as compared to previous years. Â
The biggest reason for my "improvement" is having less fear of being knocked out. Â I have come to the realization that most live tourneys do not have a structure that allows you to get through without getting lucky from time to time. Â Previously I had a fear of being all-in when I likely had the best of it (because I may be wrong). Â Now I have come to realize that maximizing on these opportunities gives you a much better chance of winning these events.
That being said, I have also decided that calling an all in bet with small pairs is very unwise. Â People do this way too much IMHO. Â
The other edge I have in MTT is just in overall experience. Â I have played roughly 900 MTT online and about 500 local live MTT events over the past 5 years. Â When many players have played less than 10 tourneys, I believe I have an edge based on experience alone. Â Nothing substitutes for experience.
I dont know if I have really answered the question, but interesting (for myself) to think about nonetheless.
Black99
Cowardlyness.
That's my edge.
I'm learning to play and I win if I make fewer egregious mistakes than my opponents.
You don't have to be a Doyle Brunson to beat bad players. You just have to show them a hand.
When I see good players, I stay out of their way or leave the table.
So my major strength is recognizing that I suck. And playing against players that suck worse.
For example. I will only play the 3/6NL when there are horrid players playing. If the table has good players I don't sit down.
I have no problem dropping down to 25NL if the 600NL game is tough.
I have no problem with getting shoved out by good players that I think will be able to outplay me postflop.
I save my chips so I can call with 8Ts against the bad players I can beat.
I know people who are much better poker players than I am that don't win as much money because they challenge and try to play the good players.
Long term they will probably learn more about poker than I so I can't fault this behavior.
LMAO. But in all seriousness, a great post, table selection is definitely often overlooked.
LOL
You can be the tenth worse player in the world ... but if you sit in a game with the nine worst players....
My edge is realizing I have no edge
In my regular home game, I constantly hear people say that "it is all luck" and "its in the cards you get dealt"
I don't believe that is true - I believe luck is involved but your skill can give you an edge and I am willing to listen, adapt and try to change it up
Many people believe they already have an edge, or that there is nothing to the game other than getting the dealt Aces and will never improve
I love coming to a table and hearing half of the guys groan that I've been placed there. Of course, I am noticing lately that as each individual player sits down everyone else is groaning about them too!
As far as my peceived rep is concerned, I know I've called people's hands in the past and made some huge laydowns when I've known the other persons hole cards. Having players at the table like Mario witnessing things like this always helps, he's not the quietest guy in the world...haha.
stp
Nice topic btw...
Great question. Made me think.
My friends have mentioned that no matter what cards I am holding, or how I am betting, I always seem worried and I think people try to take advantage of that. Sometimes they suckout and beat me, but more often than not, I can hold my own.
Muahhahaahhahahahaahahah ... I love it when I nail a bully who thinks they can just outplay me with any two cards. (Cue evil music, and lightning)
I think I am also good at not placing too much value on a single hand. So what if I get AA, there are still 5 cards to come, I can dump it if I don't like how this is playing out.
Let's not forget devilishly handsome!
What, Mario? The hell you say!!
Mark
Talk about stating the obvious, pfff. You forgot, incredible singer too!
stp
1) Limit ring: Patience, discipline, hand-reading ability, the ability to adapt to table conditions and different players. And confidence based on experience. Knowing that a big cold-card stretch doesn't mean that much in the grand scheme of things and not trying to "fix" my game when I'm getting beaten up by the variance monkey. B&M even more so than online (probably because I play B&M less) I feel I can quickly identify other peoples mistakes whether it's people that play too loose, too tight, bluff too much, overvalue hands, limp weak hands in bad position, cold-call raises too much, slowplay too much etc... Some might call it cockiness, but when you KNOW you're the best player at a table and WHY you're better than the rest, it's a great feeling to say the least... I'd also say a good memory of previous hands is an asset, but I think most good players have a good memory.
2) NL ring: Ugh, not my best game (but I don't play it that much). I'd like to think I can make good laydowns, have a good grasp of implied odds and can read hands fairly well. I definately don't consider this my best game though, I think I am more prone to tilt when I get drawn out on by a super thin draw when they had no business in the hand to begin with.
3) MTT's: Again not my best game (but I'm working on it). I think patience is key, adapting to situations based on differing stack sizes. I generally think I play a short stack pretty well and have no fear of going broke...
4) STT's: OK this isn't on the list but I'm adding it anyways. I consider myself pretty competant at single table SNGs. I find I can usually get a good read of the table, who overplays hands, who's prime to steal from, who to value bet, who to trap. Confidence: OK I know every poker player has to have confidence, but having the mindset of "I'm going to win this tournament (even when the chip stacks don't seem to indicate that)" is key. Confidence comes from experience and I'd say somewhere in my SNG playing experience my expectations/mindsets went from "Make the money and go from there" to "I'm winning this thing if I play my A-game".
I just learned to play poker this year, but I have realized that most of the more experienced players in the MTT and SNG that I have played in are even worse than me. Sometimes I find myself in the final table or even final two without hardly playing a hand. The overly loose or aggressive players love eliminating themselves.
One edge I have over the average opponent is being good at math. I have noticed that most players have no idea about pot odds, implied odds and pre-flop probabilities. I have found myself in situations when the pot odds dictate that I play my 2-3. When my all-in, short-stacked opponent shows an A-K, everybody laughs without realizing that I still have a 1 in 3 chance of winning five times my bet. When I win with my two live undercards, everybody is shocked and remain clueless about how can I call with my so-called garbage hand.
Math and odds are such a big part of any card game that IMHO, it is stupid to play for money if you are unwilling to memorize or calculate the math. Unfortunately, many casino players are too addicted to gambling and don't care about maximizing their expected value.
First, the answer MUST be "I make better decisions than a sufficient number of my opponents that I have a positive long term expecation in this game." This means that if you are in a full ring you only need to be better than two or three players and close to the other to have an edge on the game. If you are heads up, you need an edge on THAT opponents.
Generic edge: Things I do that many of my opponents do not, or do not do well.
(1) One of the things I ask myself is "what is my edge on THAT guy?" So, in a tournament in particular, where a lot of hands are played heads up, I am trying to sort out the playbook for each of my opponents. I am constantly crafting and re-crafting what I am going to do to THAT guy if the opportunity arises. Most players have a strategy that applies to the game as a whole, but not to each player at the table.
(2) Tells. I have worked on this A LOT over the past five years. I see a lot of things that most of my opponents are not seeing.
A) Limit ring game -- I fold when I am beat. Many many many players refuse to let go of top pair, for instance. Many players in short handed games refuse to let go of "something." My edge comes from POUNDING these players when I am ahead and folding when I am behind. Against most players I encounter up to $10-20 short-handed, if we are dealt the same cards I think I have an edge because I will fold more POST flop.
C) MTT -- The desire to win. I am NOT afraid to go broke. You will NOT grind off my chips. I am very willing to take on other aggressive players. Put Gus Hanson on my right and life in the jungle will be brutish and short. I am decisive. "Hope is not a plan."
This is a GREAT question to ask yourself while you are playing. Ask yourself "What is my edge on THAT guy?" If you can find one, figure out ways to exploit it. If you can't, ignore that guy and realize that you and THAT guy have an implied agreement that you are going to split up the money from the players you do have and edge over.
I have cross-posted the original post to www.UnitedPokerForum.com. I hope that's OK.
My Edge.
My edge depends on the players in the games I'm in.
0. Some games just playing tight is enough to win. You don't try to do magic tricks for a dog. It wastes time and annoys the dog. I've learned *not* to try to check raise bluff calling stations but just aggressively value bet them when I have a better hand.
1. I can switch gears and play loose or passive. I vary my game and mix up my game so I win the huge pots when I play opposite from my usual tight aggressive style when I see that players are paying attention.
2. I control the pot size. I've learned to keep the pot size small when playing aggressive bullying players and keep the pot size small when I know I'll have a big advantage post flop over weaker players. I know enough to ram and jam preflop against players that are better than me so they can't use their superior postflop skills against me.
3. I know how to use continuation bets.
4. I know how to re-steal.
5. I pay attention to the players. I watch the players when the flop comes down *not* the flop. I watch my opponents for tells.
6. I know when bet fold costs the same and is better than check call.
7. I know how much alcohol I can drink. (zero)
8. I know that "recreational players" have feelings and *never* berate weak play.
9. I have friends who I can discuss hands with. I know that 2 minds are better than one.
10. I post here and get your collective wisdom.
11. I've read about 60+ books.
12. I've played about 50,000 hands.
The biggest edge is having good friends that I can discuss hands and take apart my game. I know I still have leaks to fix.
We get together and go over hands, discuss strategies and so forth.
Poker is complex
Poker is difficult.
Poker takes a lot of work and effort.
Part of this has come from building an immunity to bad play as PL Omaha and Omaha H/L (PL and limit) has by far worse players then holdem and you will see many types of bad plays you never could in holdem (ie: a player calling full pot bets heads up all the way purely on a non-nut low or high draw that will only split the pot at best if it hits). This forces one to use more of a long term perspective.
I will also trash talk at times (though without ever using obsenity or name calling), but when I do it is always a controlled, measured tactic that also can provide an edge.
On MTTs, I definitely saw an improvement (though I do not play in as many as I used to) once I started not caring about being knocked out.
LOL!! thats funny
I think i have an edge because i do pretty much 99% of what the pros do.
I literally memerize tells, betting patterns, pot odds, implied odds, rule of four, and two. I adapt the the table and can easily switch gears when needed, i have patience, when i fold im costantly thinking about what i need to win and how i need to do it. I enduce all the info i have and need in order to make the winning hand everytime. I get my chips in at the best possible oppertunities. and i never tilt, ever.. I dont need to, as much as i think poker of a sport, or a passionate hobby, not just gambling. i also think of it as fun. And i love knowing every game i play is one more im improving on
etc.
simple
The Red Personality
The Red color personalities make up 15 percent of the population and are very direct, totally self-contained and will not let you see their weaknesses. They are extremely focused, are very intense and like to get straight to the point. They must be in charge at all times and are totally motivated by money and success.
They dislike indecision and have no time for chit chat about family or relationships. When talking to a Red, it is important to stroke their ego, show them respect and let them believe they are in total control of the conversation at all times. Although they are very goal-oriented, they are short tempered, domineering, impatient and un-teachable.
I have been an aggressive personality my entire life. When I began playing poker I was a total LAG. This style wasn't profitable for me (I treaded water for a long time) but it did force me to learn to read hands. My game is much tighter now but even more aggressive (especially pre-flop).
Also I am capable of being a chameleon when I need to be. I have worked in sales for years and I have learned to meet people on their own turf and make a connection before I start to move them in the direction I want them to go.
Here is an example:
Lets say a fact finder type comes in looking to gather some information before they make a purchase. Clipboard in hand they come in with an agenda of questions and a total inability to make a decision. 80% of the school teachers that I know fit this description.
If I try to move them toward a sale before they are ready I will lose them for sure. So I engage them on their process their ability to get to the truth and I NEVER debate with them. They feel they are prepared, they are structured and they are always right. So I give them that. Once some of the barriers come down and they start to feel comfortable I will begin to lead them. Ask questions that will bring them toward dealing with me.
This can fully translate to poker. More so live than online because live you can interact with people and study them. The way that they relate to the people at the table and how they carry themselves will tell you a lot about who they are as a person and what their motivation is at the table. A lot of people at low limits are just playing to have some fun and be social. If you are very friendly with them they will not want to mix it up with you too much for fear of busting you and having you leave the table. They will usually let you know immediately when they have a huge hand and you can adjust accordingly.
This is my edge
I like it
Great point. Not everyone plays poker to be the next world champion, or even to win.
I think I understand math better than the average player, which gives me an edge, most of the time. That being said, I still need to work on not letting the math force me into predictable betting patterns. If you play poker "by the book", you eventually come up against players who have read the same book, and they can read you, well, like a book. I have to remind myself that I can't always rely on good cards to win hands and I need to mix it up once in a while.
I think this should be in BBC's other thread.
I really hope that I am being leveled here.
Are you saying you fold Aces pre-flop?