Is this an automatic 3 bet?

ScoobyD

Just thought I'd get your thoughts, I considered 2 lines of thought on this one...

Table is generally loosey goosey fairly passive 2-4 Party.

***** Hand History for Game 3046704147 *****
$2/$4 Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, November 16, 20:14:58 EDT 2005
Table Table 66369 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: rmn40 ( $154 )
Seat 2: duffet ( $105.50 )
Seat 5: ScoobD ( $178.50 )
Seat 6: mmcnamara22 ( $135 )
Seat 8: sausage114 ( $240.75 )
Seat 10: umbertii ( $95.25 )
Seat 4: OvidPry0 ( $97 )
Seat 7: przemeks ( $154 )
Seat 9: hays315 ( $96 )
Seat 3: BagsToRiches ( $98 )
mmcnamara22 posts small blind [$1].
przemeks posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ScoobD [ 2c Ac ]
sausage114 calls [$2].
hays315 calls [$2].
umbertii calls [$2].
rmn40 calls [$2].
duffet folds.
BagsToRiches calls [$2].
OvidPry0 folds.
ScoobD calls [$2].
mmcnamara22 calls [$1].
przemeks checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5c, 3s, Jc ]
mmcnamara22 bets [$2].
przemeks folds.
sausage114 calls [$2].
hays315 raises [$4].
umbertii folds.
rmn40 folds.
BagsToRiches folds.
ScoobD ?

I am leaning towards 3 betting here almost strictly for value with my nutflush draw + gutshot, but the downside is that 3 betting may drive out the bettor and caller, getting me headsup with the raiser. If I want the extra calls here, calling is better. Of course there's some argument that 3 betting may get rid of a bigger ace, buying me some outs. Pot is reasonable size so this seems to have some value, as well, there's some chance that the 3 bet might get me a free turn card. So, given the pot size (12 SB at this point), is a 3 bet clearly better than a call here?

zero

I'm leaning towards calling to keep the other two players in. Its true that you probably won't get a free turn card, but the pot would be pretty big so you'd be getting great odds on the call anyways. I think you should only 3 bet on this kind of draw if you have the two other players trapped.

SirWatts

I'm not 100% sure but I think it's a raise for value, to buy extra outs, and to hopefully take afree card on the turn if you don't hit. OK I convinced myself i think this an easy raise.

Unknown

I like a bet at this point for a couple reasons
1) As you mentioned it may get you a free look as you have positioning.

2) It will clear out a higher A or even small pairs and possibly (unlikely) top pair with a weak kicker. Not sure if you want that if you actually connect on your draw thou. But I look at winning pots of good size and not necessarily hitting a monster pot every time.

3) It will better define where you stand.  You have probably the best drawing hand out there but a raise will give you information on possible trips that may be out there as well.  As I know if I have trips I am coming over the top of your raise again to make you pay for your draw.  If the board then pairs on the turn you have more of a chance to dump this draw as you could be drawing to a loser or conversely if you hit your turn you will be able to get money out of the trips.   The pot is a nice size now so taking it down or limiting it to headsup or 3 people is not a bad option.  Sometimes trapping or in your case semi trapping may cost you.    

AcidJoe

Since it's a loose Party poker table I raise. If it was a fairly tight table I think I only call. Even if someone comes over the top you'd call and if you don't hit you'd be done. I think the chances of driving people out at this point are slim. I can't see it ended heads up but if you were really worried about that then just call. After all it's Party Poker.

BBC Z

Easiest 3-bet ever.

You are on the button with the nut flush draw and:

I think it's a raise for value, to buy extra outs, and to hopefully take afree card on the turn if you don't hit.

I'm leaning towards calling to keep the other two players in.

Good strategy if you want to put bets in on every street when you aren't getting bet odds.

'comes over the top'

That's an NL term, keep it there.

It will better define where you stand.

Do you even care where you stand? You have the flush draw and are going to the river with it. Your opponents hands are practically irrelevant.

PokerKai

BBC Z wrote:

Easiest 3-bet ever.

zero

Haha, i guess I should start reraising in these situations.

funkymunky

I've just done reading SSHE by Ed Miller, and have since become much more aggressive when I have a hand, and I feel I have the best of it. I routinely reraise with such a hand. You win big pots with this strategy, and even when you don't hit the flush, you still win a few!

It was a change, getting used to hitting the "raise" button so much, but the results have been great!!

A side note, the book is awesome! I've read it twice so far, and am on my third go round. Seem to pick up something with each read.

BBC Z

It was a change, getting used to hitting the "raise" button so much, but the results have been great!!

Heh. Get ready for the -200BB swing that accompanies the SSH 'epiphany'.