An old FT hand

Not many strategy posts in a while so I guess I'll post an old hand of mine that is maybe a little interesting. Live tournament, $1450 first, $800 2nd, $600 3rd. Three players remain. Button has 300K, you are in the SB with 235K, BB has about 90K before posting. Blinds 5K/10K ante 500. The button has been playing fairly solid. Aggressive like you have to be playing shorthanded, but not out of line yet. He certainly knows how to modify his starting requirements for shorthanded play though. He makes an unusually large raise to 50K from the button. First case: You don't have any read on why he raised so much from previous hands. You look down and find KQs, what is your action? edit: You have the image of a fairly tight but strong player but he proabbly suspects you are capable of making some moves on occasion, especially shorthanded.

Comments

  • Since the difference between 2nd and 3rd isn't much I wouldn't be playing the waiting game for 90K to get busted. KQs is a marginal hand, a 40K raise on the button reeks to me of either a small pair or a big ace (AK, AQ, AJ). I think you can find a better spot then this one with your level of skill.

    I'd hate to lose an extra $600-$800 with an attractive yet weak hand like KQs. In saying this, if I get mid pp in the same situation I'm pushing and gambling for the win and not worrying to much about the possibility of finishing 3rd...

    stp
  • I'd take a flop.

    From my experience in sharthanded play, this is typically a low pocket pair.
    He may be willing to get his chips in preflop, but is scared to see a flop full of overcards.
    Pushing preflop will likely get you in with the worst hand, and I don't like it.
    Call, check out the texture of the flop -  I consider any K or Q to be good, even with an overcard.

    I don't think there is any way I can let this go preflop.
  • I would fold.

    You have a solid raising hand, but one which cannot stand up to a legitimate raise, even being 3-handed.

    Raising to 50K into the BB who began the hand with 90K establishes very clearly that the button has a hand which he is probably willing to play all-in versus the short stack. Though there are a few hands you might be in okay shape against with KQ, your opponent's range of hands is likely to contain a lot of hands with showdown strength, like Aces and pairs.

    Seeing the flop against a raising hand which is even somewhat legitimate isn't too appealing. The alternative to folding seems to be moving all-in on something of a re-steal. Unfortunately, the raiser committing himself to the pot versus the BB suggest that the "steal" aspect of this play may be dicey.

    Whether or not the 50K amount is unsual depends on the rule used for re-opening the betting. If the BB moving all-in for 30K more would not re-open the betting action, then raising to 50K (rather than to 30K, say) makes sense.

    ScottyZ
  • ScottyZ wrote:


    Whether or not the 50K amount is unsual depends on the rule used for re-opening the betting. If the BB moving all-in for 30K more would not re-open the betting action, then raising to 50K (rather than to 30K, say) makes sense.

    ScottyZ

    This is a good point. I do not know the exact chip counts but I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with the raise size in this case.
  • OK, I'll take a stab at this.  Our chip position is good, but the blinds are still huge, so the short stack isn't that much of a dog in this high variance game. If I had to guess what the button raise meant, he's roughly making it half the size of the short stack.  This reeks of a "I want the blinds, but I don't mind getting headsup allin vs. the short-stack. "  If I had to guess a hand, I'd say small pocket. He more than likely doesn't want the other bigger stack involved in the hand. So, what's the play?  Can we possibly make him laydown a hand here by moving in?  Maybe, but it's possible he may feel pot committed. I think calling is potentially lower variance, still leaving us with a sizable chip advantage on the shorter stack if we duck out on the flop.  I am guessing the BB will laydown anything but a monster in this spot (even though he's getting tremendous pot odds), since he is likely happy to see the 2 big stacks fight.  Being first to act, we get the first chance to bluff, and I think we can probably test the button by betting on most flops (regardless of what hits).  He has to be pretty serious about a hand to decide to take on the other big stack in this spot.  Of course I would assume hitting a K or Q is good headsup in this spot.  I think I likely call with the intention of betting out on the flop...  But what do I know, I don't have much FT experience...
  • Why is everyone so scared to take a flop here?

    calling will likely terrify him, and may give the BB the odds he wants to get in on the action - then you can both call and check it down.

    If BB mucks, then you just outplay the button on the flop. SImlple as that! ;)

    Curious as to how you acted here watts....
  • the_main wrote:
    Why is everyone so scared to take a flop here?
    I agree with taking a flop here.  KQs is pretty much a monster 3-handed.
    the_main wrote:
    then you can both call and check it down.
    Check it down?  Not gonna happen with a pot that big.
    the_main wrote:
    If BB mucks, then you just outplay the button on the flop. SImlple as that! ;)
    My plan exactly... unless SirWatts was the BB.  I don't mess around with that guy  :D

    /g2
  • the_main wrote:
    Why is everyone so scared to take a flop here?

    Well, a couple of things could easily happen here. You don't hit your K or Q and then, assuming this player is like most and continuation bets, you will have to fold. Or you do hit your K or Q and he has you outkicked or has hit a set. I know the ladder is less likely but still a possibility. Calling here would be the last thing I would do.

    There is NO way the small stack will be calling here if the two bigs are involved unless he has a monster and in that case he'll be pushing the rest in and you'll need to get luck to not triple him up. Anyway, my fold stands and calling just blows IMO.

    stp
  • Without a read I think I would lean towards folding here against most players. Maybe his raise means he has a small pair but I've seen lots of people do this with AK/AQ too because they are afraid of playing flops if they miss (just like with small pairs). If the player was predictable postflop I could try to outplay him but putting in over 20% of my stack out of position when I'm not sure where I am in the hand doesn't sound great to me, and it's pretty hard to outplay someone when the chips are short like they will be if I call compared to the size of the pot. I guess it's that typical raise or fold in the small blind mentality I got from playing so much short handed limit holdem (where this is an auto 3-bet). I think in a close decision like this that extra $200 you get if the BB busts makes me like folding a bit more, even though in this prize structure you're obviously playing to win. Anyways I can't tell you what I did yet because I actually had a read. When we were down to 4 or 5 players the button from this hand made the same raise, again from the button, to try to make sure I got out of the hand (I was SB this time as well) so he could try to eliminate the BB who was pot committted after posting. I folded BB called and he showed QTs. So with this information how do you play the hand in the original post?
  • So with this information how do you play the hand in the original post?

    Move all-in.

    This is suddenly an easy value-based raise, with the additional bonus that you also don't mind both opponents passing since the pot has already gotten somewhat large.

    Without the concern that you are probably facing a legitimate raising hand, the KQs now becomes a 3-handed powerhouse.

    As Stpboy might put it, calling (still) blows. :)

    This is a very instructive hand. Varying the size your opening raises generally gives information away, and this hand (together with recalling the opponent's previous behavior) is a glaring example of this.

    ScottyZ
  • I :h: to take this hand to a flop. KQs is a solid hand 3-handed. However, the preflop raise is way big and you're risking too much of your stack to contest his raise without a good read. Also, you're out of position postflop, unless you stop-and-go on the flop to put the pressure back on him. Though that's not something you necessarily want to do without a good read on him.

    I fold and wait for a hand where I can take the lead. Alternatively, move all in preflop. But I still prefer folding here.
  • With that read, I push.
  • Same - now I push with that read.
  • I disagree. I don't think this read makes it an auto-push. He could very easily have a hand that is much stronger than QTs. I'm sticking to my original call and outplay him on the flop strategy. When I came up with my original strategy I had already guessed that he was just trying to steal the blinds with a weak holding of face cards. Flat calling his large bet shows strength and should buy you some respect for the flop.

    /g2
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