Playing a low-mid PP after the flop

doctorbsdoctorbs
in General Poker Chat
I had a 20 minute discussion with a friend about how to play a low-mid PP after the flop, and no matter how many times he kept trying to see his point, I couldn't agree with how he plays this situation.  In fact, I think it's detremental to play this situation the way he does.

Say he has 66, he'll make a pretty good raise preflop (I believe he said roughly 4x the BB), which I don't completely hate, but personally I like to try and limp in with a low-mid PP and hit my set on the flop.

But, after the flop, he says he always checks and lets someone else bet into him.  He says that he gets a better read when he lets someone bet into him, but I really find that hard to believe (I've played with this guy quite a bit, and I think he's just trying to get too tricky for his own good).

Personally, if I'm raising 4x the BB preflop, there's no way I'm letting the flop come down without firing a continuation bet out there (Update: of course this all depends on the board. I don't want to just throw chips into the pot if the flop has most likely hit one of my opponents).

Anyone have any comments or suggestions about how he plays this?  Depending on the feedback I'm probably going to print this out and give it to him.

Comments

  • specialKspecialK
    i would say that the aggressive raise of 4x the BB preflop isn't a bad play, i think that limping in is a good play if you have a PP under 55 because those are the hands that you are either gonna hit a set and continue or fold right there. definately with a PP 55 66 etc. you pretty much have to raise preflop to get rid of garbage hands, then you can have some idea of what your opponents might have. I would say after the raise of 4x the BB you need to make a continuation bet with a middle PP, and try to put together some idea of what your opponents have from there. i think the continuation bet would be hard to make with a hand like 66 and the flop comes A J 10 or
    K Q 7 (all over cards) if you have more than 1 opponent in the hand. because with a raise of 4x the BB you could expect to see some AJ AQ KQ(maybe) 1010 77, and it is likely that if you had more than one opponent one of these hands is in there that hit top pair or some kind of a draw or trips, in this case checking might be the best play. but on a flop like 10 5 2 or 9 4 3 getting aggressive is a good idea.
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    You are both wrong because you shouldn't ever 'always' or 'never' do anything.

    So he always checks on the flop. Thats bad.

    You always fire out a continuation bet on the flop. Thats bad.

    You guys can talk forever about this topic. It's so highly situational and dependant on so many factors that taking a generic view is too limiting to have an effective conversation.
  • doctorbsdoctorbs
    BBC Z wrote:
    You always fire out a continuation bet on the flop. Thats bad.

    Well of course it totally depends on the flop (I'm at work so I didn't go into full detail about all the situations it would apply to because it would've taken too long).  If 3 high cards fall (ones that are most likely to improve the preflop callers' hands), I'll probably check and throw away my hand when someone bets.

    I guess the thing that I want the feedback on is making the big preflop bet and then checking every time to see what the other people in the hand do... personally I just think it's a bad play. You can't find out where you stand if you don't fire a continuation bet (again, of course, if it's a reasonable flop for your hand, otherwise you have to know when to surrender).
  • SirWattsSirWatts
    Doctor B.S. wrote:
    personally I just think it's a bad play. You can't find out where you stand if you don't fire a continuation bet

    Some players are so predictable that you can. Maybe your friend is very good at reading people or something. Depending how many people are in the pot and how ragged the flop is a continuation bet is often best to avoid free cards if you do happen to have the best of it. This is way too general to say anything more than that.
  • ZithalZithal
    Big agreement with BBC Z on this one as there are a number of factors to consider here; Position, stack sizes, Your M and Q, etc., etc., etc., etc....

    Mixing up your game is MUST *if* you're playing with people that will notice this type of thing. Lots of different factors will help you decide if you should call, raise or fold your 6's pre-flop.

    The one thing I like about raising mid pairs in midlate to late position is that you have a number of ways to win post-flop...

    - Flop a 6 and you love life. (Until you get crushed by an overset or runner-runner flush, of course)
    - If the flop comes Ace high, a continuation bet looks as if you've betting your top pair.
    - If the flop comes low, a good percentage of the time you have to believe that you're ahead based on what you think you're opponent will call 4xBB with.

    Mid pocket pairs are also a good candidate for a semi-bluff re-raise steal attempt, esp. if you limp with them in early position cause that tends to represent a huge hand.

    I think the point of all this is exactely what BBC Z said, the error is believing that there's only one way to play a hand.

    If you need to think mechanical about your play, you can still set rules for yourself based on your actual cards. (For exmaple, If I get dealt a mid pocket pair in mid postion, I'd like to raise to 4xBB half the time and limp the other half. So, if one of my cards is a spade (50% chance), I'll raise, otherwise I'll limp.)
  • magithighsmagithighs
    So many good points in this thread and I agree with BBCZ on the always thing.  I think most great players are pretty much open to anyhthing and will never always do something.  I know I thought I'd never play 42o, and at my first World Series, not only did I play it buy I pushed my whole stack with it and won!  Very situational play, but it was correct at the time.

    The one interesting point your friend brings up is a tip I provided at the first Lucky Lou tournament.  When you're out of position, made a pre-flop raise and need to run a bluff, you're never quite certain of the amount to bet to convince your opponent you have the goods and they should fold.  Underbet, and you'll get called.  Overbet and you'll get called.  So, the best way to figure out the amount is to let your opponent tell you how much.  Checking is much better than trying to guess the amount when you don't know your opponents.  Your opponent will a) consider you have a monster you're slow-playing and b) think you completely missed, or c) caught a piece.  He can't figure it out because you've given him 0 information.  So, he'll make a bet based on his hand and what he wants to find out from you.  You can then react accordingly, especially if it's folded around to you.  Now you're in a great position to run a bluff.  Or if it's raised back to you, you can get away from your hand or push all in when you have the set!!!

    Personally, when there's deep stacks I really don't like low pairs under 6.  I know presto's in there, but I don't like it.  They're going broke hands.

    Cheers
    Magi
  • ChugsChugs
    As stated never do the same thing always, but what your friend is doing does make some sense.

    While he risks letting off a free card (or getting a miracle) depending on where he stands, be also negates partially the situation of being out of position. He now has possibly gained information before putting more chips into the pot.

    Also if the other player (assuming its heads up), checks behind him a bet on the turn has a better chance of being interpreted as a guy slow playing a monster on the flop.

    Don't underestimate the value of the information he gains, and how it outweighs the benefit of the continuation bet ... (against the right opponents, against some people who would auto bet to your check you may not gain anything)
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