What do you do

westside8

PokerStars Game #2952287715: Tournament #14569427, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2005/11/02 - 01:18:22 (ET)
Table '14569427 18' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: wesleyw (1420 in chips)
Seat 2: Lemon Paeroa (930 in chips)
Seat 3: mojazz27 (3100 in chips)
Seat 5: eXcivory (1280 in chips)
Seat 6: Sam Iam65 (1140 in chips)
Seat 7: JStelz110 (1390 in chips)
Seat 8: Baja10 (1060 in chips)
Seat 9: InTooLong63 (6540 in chips)
Lemon Paeroa: posts small blind 10
mojazz27: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to wesleyw [Kc Qc]
eXcivory: raises 60 to 80
Sam Iam65: folds
JStelz110: folds
Baja10: calls 80
InTooLong63: calls 80
wesleyw: calls 80
Lemon Paeroa: folds
mojazz27: folds
*** FLOP *** [3h Ts Qs]
eXcivory: checks
Baja10: bets 50
InTooLong63: calls 50
wesleyw: raises 150 to 200
eXcivory: folds
Baja10: raises 780 to 980 and is all-in

Early in the tournament, no read on any player

pkrfce9

Fold. The chances you are behind now are very high. I get nailed on this all the time.

You've got lots of chips. Wait for a better spot.

SirWatts

Yeah I think you have to fold. Also, fold preflop.

pkrfce9

Why fold pre-flop? He's got a decent hand and the raise is for a small fraction of his chips.

I guess I'm curious what kind of hand you need to call in this circumstance.

SirWatts

I generally play pretty tight in the beginning stages of these things to avoid decisions like the one in this hand. There is a lot of value in trying to hit flops and bust the donks but I prefer to do so cheaply not for 4xBB raise. Also, KQ in particular is domianted by so many hands that I really don't like calling raises with it unless I have good reason to think they are raising light. i'd rather limp a 76s on the button in a game like this. I think as long as you can make the fold in this hand it's not that bad but still not great. The problem is that in a small buy-in MTT (I assume this was?) you may well have the best hand here but not often enough to make it worth the risk so it's hard to fold.

ScottyZ

SirWatts wrote:

I generally play pretty tight in the beginning stages of these things to avoid decisions like the one in this hand. There is a lot of value in trying to hit flops and bust the donks but I prefer to do so cheaply not for 4xBB raise. Also, KQ in particular is domianted by so many hands that I really don't like calling raises with it unless I have good reason to think they are raising light. i'd rather limp a 76s on the button in a game like this. I think as long as you can make the fold in this hand it's not that bad but still not great. The problem is that in a small buy-in SnG (I assume this was?) you may well have the best hand here but not often enough to make it worth the risk so it's hard to fold.

Great post.

Fold, and fold pre-flop. I don't even care for the initial flop raise.

I'm going to assume the tournament is a freezeout, since we are not told otherwise. A couple of stacks being 3,000 and 6,000 suggests that this might be a re-buy tourney. (Of course, an ultra-loose freezeout or simply one with a few very big pots early on remains a possibility.)

Why fold pre-flop? He's got a decent hand and the raise is for a small fraction of his chips.

So far, the loose pre-flop call has cost $280 in chips, and if the current play is a close decision to the OP'er, loads more chips have been put at risk than just the original $80.

As SirWatts mentioned, if you are prone to playing an implied odds hand and marrying the flop when you hit only a pair, you are probably better off tossing it in pre-flop in the long run.

ScottyZ

SirWatts

If it's a rebuy tournament I call because he could have a pretty big range here and I can just rebuy (assuming you don't mind paying for a few rebuys) but I'm still not too happy about it. EDIT: Who am I kidding I love getting all my chips in the middle in the rebuy period and trying to double up, but it 's probably a leak.

ScottyZ

Actually, your internal conflict in the re-buy case is interesting.

The whole reason I mentioned the possibility of a re-buy tournament is that IMO this exact scenario (calling the final flop all-in bet) is a very close decision in a re-buy tournament.

This, I think, makes it a crystal clear fold in a freezeout, where

1. your opponents are not as crazy, and
2. you are much more averse to busting out.

An interesting general method of analysing a {freezeout tournament, re-buy tournament, cash game} hand on the fly is to imagine what you would do in the same spot in one of the other kinds of games.

Obviously these formats are not interchangable, but some general rules can be generated. For example, a close cash game decision leaning towards a fold is typically an easy freezeout tournament fold.

ScottyZ

SirWatts

I think this case actually is a call in a rebuy tournament because i can put him on at least any queen, any flush draw, KJ, J9 as hands that I beat (possibly some other strange ones also) plus some hands that have us killed but it seems like an easy call against that range given the odds you have.

Irah

I am also in favor of folding pre flop. With the action taking place ahead of you, you have no idea where you are at in the hand. If it were folded to you you, and you raised, you would at least be able to gauge where you are at. It is the first level in the tourney, you have all of your original stack, so you dont need to play difficult hands like this.

BBC Z

Early in the tournament, no read on any player

You are either up against a set or a flush draw.

The set needs to get all the money in because of the draw and the flush draw wants to knock out the weak made hand..

With no reason to believe otherwise, you probably need to fold. But damn guys, it's not so automatic.

pkrfce9

BBC Z wrote:

it's not so automatic.

Yes it is. Just ask Scotty. He is almost omniscient.

SirWatts

BBC Z wrote:

You are either up against a set or a flush draw.

The set needs to get all the money in because of the draw and the flush draw wants to knock out the weak made hand..

With no reason to believe otherwise, you probably need to fold. But damn guys, it's not so automatic.

There are certainly hands other than a set or FD he could have here. AQ might play it the same as does QT. I'm sure you get shown KQ, QJ, or Q9 once in a while. The problem is we usually have at most 3 outs when behind but our opponent probably has 9-15 outs when he's drawing. This swings the odds against us. I tend to ignore the fold a close EV decision and wait for a better spot idea but this seems to be a case when it would apply even if the odds were slightly better here. I used to think this was automatic but I'll agree that it shouldn't be. edit: If I knew how he lost his first 500 chips I might call if it was donkish enough.

ScoobyD

Out of curiosity, what was the buyin? I think I probably make the call there if it's a rebuy or a low enough buyin (but I'm not overly happy about it with no reads).