How much to raise with A-Q?

BlondeFish

Poker newbie question: :fish: how much of the pot should you bet when your A-Q hits the Ace on the flop with no scary draws?  The poker books I have read simply tell you to bet/raise, but doesn't specify if 1/4, 1/2 or over 100% of the existing pot is the mathematically correct amount to raise.

In the early stages of a freeze-out MTT, hero gets: :ah :qc
In middle position, makes standard raise of 3x BB
Only player on the button calls.
Flop: :ad :6c :9s
Hero makes an agressive bet against the smaller stack.
:
Villain ends up all-in, but doubles up with his  :as :6h 

It seems that everytime that I have an A-Q and have 3-to-1 advantage pre-flop against an A-6, I end up doubling my opponent.  So if one flops the high pair but is not the last to act, what is the mathematically optimal amount of the pot to bet out?

morty

I don't think you would want to be so consistent that you always bet the same amount when you hit top pair like this.

It won't take long for savvy players to put you on a big ace and run trapping plays against you.

Anyway, I don't see how you could have gotten away from this against a smaller stack. It's one of the inherent dangers of acting first.

A pot-sized bet bet should show you where you stand, don't you think? A call would tell me that he/she also has an ace, a re-raise would tell me that he feels he's got the best hand.

BlondeFish

Thanks for the reply. I did actually bet almost the size of the pot, but when he re-raised with the remainder of his small stack, I was pot-committed to call. Assuming that he had paired his kicker or had an A-K, I knew that I would only have three outs (3 Queens left) or 12% chance of winning. I had slightly more chips than him, so since my call would only be 8% of the total pot, I had the pot odds to call.

In terms of mathematical/odds strategy, I think betting out one-quarter of the pot is better. Opponents with a lower kicker or no pair would not have the pot odds to call. But if they have two pair or better, you will still have a chance to get out or slow down.

morty wrote:

A pot-sized bet bet should show you where you stand, don't you think? A call would tell me that he/she also has an ace, a re-raise would tell me that he feels he's got the best hand.

roketinpoket

I would say that a 1/4 pot bet is too small as it will allow many players to outdraw you. One of the things to remember when betting is that you don't want your opponents to know why you bet. If you consistently bet 1/2 - 1 pot, your opponent will not have any read as to whether you are bluffing, milking, or just trying to protect your hand.

SirWatts

There is no reason to think AQ is not the best hand on this flop and nothing a shortstack can do should make you feel otherwise, you were just unlucky to not have the best hand. If he had AJ or AT or A2 for that matter he would have gone broke to you here. My only advice here is to bet the same amount you would bet if you didn't have an ace so you don't give away any information. There are almost no draws on the board so I would probably just make my normal 1/2-2/3 the pot continuation type bet. But you should be very happy to get all your chips in the middle on this flop against the short stack, at least until he shows you he got lucky.

ScoobyD

Assuming that he had paired his kicker or had an A-K, I knew that I would only have three outs (3 Queens left) or 12% chance of winning.

While you're right about AK (and there's no reason to think with his flat call preflop that he held a hand this strong), you're wrong about the paired kicker hands (unless he has specifically top 2). You actually have 6 outs here on the flop, and are likely to pick up an additional 3 outs on the turn (provided a card higher than a 6 hits the turn). Hidden outs, and a demonstration of the vulnerablility of hands like bottom 2, or even top and bottom pair.

GTA Poker

It depends

BlondeFish

Thanks to everybody for their useful replies (except GTA Poker). The books I have read never mentioned hidden outs or the strategy of consistently betting 1/2 of the pot.

ScoobyD wrote:

are likely to pick up an additional 3 outs on the turn (provided a card higher than a 6 hits the turn).  Hidden outs, and a demonstration of the vulnerablility of hands like bottom 2, or even top and bottom pair.

pkrfce9

Hidden outs you can read about in SSHE by Sklansky, Miller and Malmuth. (Not necessarily in that order...)

Continuation bets you can read about in Harrington on Holdem Vol 1.

Enjoy!