What do you do?

ScoobyD

Villian is a Loose Aggressive Passive. VPIP/PFR/PFAF of 47/7/1. I've seen him bluff post-flop, but generally tends to call down lot with weak made hands. Generally not the type to come over the top with pure crap, but he'll bet if you show weakness. Past few hands his crap has finally started getting run over by real hands...

***** Hand History for Game 2867263189 *****
$2/$4 Texas Hold'em - Sunday, October 30, 12:35:21 EDT 2005
Table Table 31967 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: Alex_Pro ( $106 )
Seat 1: Placodermi ( $132 )
Seat 6: Scoob_D ( $134.50 )
Seat 2: ankern1 ( $115.52 )
Seat 5: gkelyman ( $140 )
Seat 3: Renechea ( $70.50 )
Seat 8: ToDieAlone ( $77 )
Seat 9: Chodu_99 ( $53.04 )
Seat 7: asp777 ( $96 )
Seat 10: ghettobird96 ( $100 )
asp777 posts small blind [$1].
ToDieAlone posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scoob_D [ Td Ts ]
Chodu_99 folds.
ankern1 folds.
Renechea calls [$2].
Alex_Pro folds.
gkelyman folds.
Scoob_D raises [$4].
asp777 folds.
ToDieAlone folds.
Renechea calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5c, 6h, 4c ]
Renechea checks.
Scoob_D bets [$2].
Renechea calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
Renechea bets [$4].
Scoob_D ?

ScottyZ

Call.

Heads-up, your hand is too often going to be good to fold here. On the other hand, the board is now threatening enough that raising is going to be throwing money away most of the time. If your opponent is simply betting a flush draw he has picked up, he will likely fire again on the river as a bluff if he misses, and you can reasonably get away from the hand if the 4th club hits the board.

By calling on the turn, I think you will still be able to extract the maximum amount of turn and river bets (i.e. 2) in case your hand is still good. However, raising the turn commits you to losing a minimum of 2 bets if you are actually behind (likely 4 bets, if your opponent actually has the nut (or just big) flush), as opposed to the a 2 bets maximum acheived by a turn call.

Against other strange holdings (like 2 pair, or top pair), you are either winning or probably have enough outs to take off the turn and river cards.

Is folding on the turn an option? It might be a fairly close decision, but too many low-limit opponents will spring to life and (probably incorrectly) bet the turn with only a single club in their hand.

I'd call both the turn and river (if another club does not arrive), and I'd expect the opponent to have a busted flush draw some decent percentage of the time (but certainly not all the time).

If your opponent happens to check a bricky river to you, it's going to be a pretty close decision between value betting or just checking behind. I'd be inclined to bet fairly often in this scenario, expecting the opponent to have merely one pair most of the time if I was called.

ScottyZ

SirWatts

Scoooty is right on the money again. Calldown if a 4th club comes on the river and he bets I guess you can find a fold. Easy river value bet if he checks to you after a blank comes.

ScoobyD

OK. I thought the same. The donk bet didn't make much sense to me if he actually had the straight or the flush. I'd expect to get check-raised there if he had either given the fact that my tight image would probably indicate I didn't have a 3. It felt like an opportunity to bluff at a very scary card. So, I call figuring if it is a bluff attempt calling wins me the most, and minimizes my losses if my read is wrong...

So, onto the river...

** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
Renechea bets [$4].
Scoob_D calls [$4].
** Dealing River ** [ 7c ]
Renechea bets [$4].
Scoob_D ?

Does the board get any uglier? Given that I felt my hand was good on the turn, do I make a crying call here? Or is this pure spewing?

ScottyZ

Does the board get any uglier?

Unfortunately, no it does not. Fold.

While you can still feel your hand has some chance of being best on the turn, nearly 100% of the (reasonable) hands you were beating on the turn are now beating you. Every possible draw has gotten there, and the even the busted draws have just made two pair (or better).

To call here, you'd be attempting to make the unlikely parlay of your opponent having both an unreasonable hand, and making an unreasonable bet.

Is raising worth consideration here? After all, the board may also look like a disaster to your opponent. I don't think so. It's low-limit after all, and I doubt you'd take someone off a hand that was beating pocket tens. You'd be called by the 3c or two pair nearly100% of the time. (And, it's pretty clear that you can't raise for value.)

ScottyZ

SirWatts

Nice river card. Yeah definiely fold to that ugly thing.

BBC Z

To call here, you'd be attempting to make the unlikely parlay of your opponent having both an unreasonable hand, and making an unreasonable bet.

He may have an unreasonable hand, but this is a very standard limit river bet thats practically automatic.

Most opponents won't be able to raise that river without a very high club in thier hand so you gain the bet when you are ahead. If you check in that position, you will pay off your opponent when he bets and either fold a potential winner or are forced to pay off his club.

ScoobyD

Not to mention if he has utter trash, a river bet has some potential to fold a better hand (ie a hand like mine without a club).  OK, maybe the result has skewed my view of the hand a little, but I'm trying to look back and see if there was a better line to take anywhere.   Raising the turn seems excessive, but in hindsight I wonder if it has the potential to buy me a free showdown on the river (although in hindsight I think my opponent probably would at least call my turn raise and potentially bet into me on the river).  I think I'm probably most annoyed at my middle-of-the-road approach to calling the turn (feeling strongly I was up against a bluff), figuring I could either lose the least/extract the most depending on if I was wrong or right. Given the river, I need to know that a) my opponent was bluffing on the turn, and b) was bluffing without a club.  Given the not gigantic pot, I didn't see how I could possibly be good enough times here to justify the call.

Results (not that it really matters):

** Dealing River ** [ 7c ]
Renechea bets [$4].
Scoob_D folds.
Renechea shows [ 7s, 9s ] a pair of sevens.
Renechea wins $26 from  the main pot  with a pair of sevens.

Although the result sucked, I suppose the guy could have easily have shown me 9c7s too...

SirWatts

Without a read that he would do something like this I think the fold is still right. Never trust those donk bets (when he leads into the person with initiative) is the lesson learned. Even against the Laggiest of LAGs (which you say this guy was not) I would hate to call here, though it might be close then. So many of his stupid bluffs just drew out on you though. But I AM weak-tight after all.

Tigerscott

I make this call but I'm an aggressive guy..

I like your line in the hand though.. calling/folding river depends on the guy.. if he's even a little aggressive I think you gotta call. If he's very bad then he probley chased the flush and it's an ok fold.