I Hate How I Played This Hand on Every Postflop Street

5/5 NL B&M
Stacks are fairly deep.  I have a little over $1000 and Villain has just over $1500

PREFLOP: 4 limpers to Hero who has 8c 7d in the SB, check, BB checks as well.

FLOP: Jh 8h 7s

Hero bets $20 into the pot, BB folds, Villain UTG (an extremely loose and slightly over agressive player but not terrible postflop) jumps it to $60, folded around to Hero who just calls. 

TURN: As

Hero bets $150, Villain agonizes for a long time and calls.

RIVER: 4d

Hero bets $200, Villain agonizes for a long time and calls.

Comments

  • What did villain have?

    My bet is Ah and either the 9h or 10h
  • I'd checkraise the flop.

    Villain likely has a weak Jack.
  • You only hate it because you lost the hand.

    I'm guessing he had the nut flush draw off the flop and hit 2pr on the river. A4 perhaps?

    Or maybe he had J4?
  • The reason to hate the hand is not if you won or lost it.

    It's the fact that your betting and calling actions never gave you a clear indication of what you are up against. Mind you i still think with the exception of not re-raising on the flop, you bet the hand well.

    You bet the pot on the turn and value bet the river for half the pot.
  • Chugs wrote:
    It's the fact that your betting and calling actions never gave you a clear indication of what you are up against.
    The bet on the turn was pot-sized. The villian called 'agonizingly'. He could be putting on an act or feels he has to draw out to win. So he already has an overpair, trips, a better 2 pr and feels he's calling against a better hand(not likely), or he has top pair or he's on a straight or flush draw.

    A reraise on the flop would have chased out a weak hand. Maybe that is preferrable, I don't know. I guess if he called a re-raise, you'd know for sure he had something big.

    Certainly worth hearing other's opinions on this one.
  • I would have popped it harder on the flop... re-raise to $240 or so.

    I don't mind the turn and river bets, actually. You bet enough to avoid having to face a nasty raise... in other words, your hand is good enough that you're probably going to go to showdown. You don't want to lose your entire stack against a low set though... I like that you controlled how much that showdown was going to cost, as opposed to letting your opponent decide.

    Was this at Fallsview? I played their 5/5 NL game a couple of weeks ago and I thought it was great. Their limit games absolutely sucked though... a Friday night and the best they could offer was 6/12. Ugh.
  • I don't think you played the hand that badly (but I'm far from a NL expert).  The trouble is trying to figure out what Villain's call means on the turn.  Is he drawing or does he have a made hand better than yours and is worried you have an even bigger hand?  I'm guessing villain caught his 2 pair on the turn (A7, A8?), but got worried you were either on a flopped straight or a set...  Although in hindsight I suppose he could have 65 for the ragged end of the straight...
  • With 6 players seeing the flop, I'm tempted to check the flop... ecspecially with the LAG to my left. You bet, he raises, shutting out the field... I like a c/r line here, hopefully picking up some additional money from the limpers. As played, I re-raise him to about $200 on the flop to take the pot now or gain info.

    As played, I like your bet on the turn... his call now worries me... He could have made 2 pair here easily.

    I check the river... you're only getting called by better hands.

    I think the villian is "agonizing" about you holding 9T or a set
  • OK I'm not that used to playing deep stack NL cash games anymore but here goes:

    I'm putting in a pot-sized reraise on the flop, if he calls I probably have to slowdown on the turn and if he pushes over the top I can get away. I like your turn bet as you played it making him pay to see the river if he's on a draw and possibly moving him off J8 or J7 though that's probably wishful thinking. I would just check to him on the river, if he agonized on the turn he will probably be hesitant to make a big bet on the river as a bluff if he missed his draw or as a value bet if he has you beat. The only thing you're likely beating is a busted draw and maybe a few hands like KJ or an A-high flush draw that might pay off with one pair. I know some people like using a "blocking" bet to try to prevent having to face a big bet on the end but in general I don't like this move.
  • PokerKai wrote:
    5/5 NL B&M
    Stacks are fairly deep. I have a little over $1000 and Villain has just over $1500

    PREFLOP: 4 limpers to Hero who has 8c 7d in the SB, check, BB checks as well.

    FLOP: Jh 8h 7s

    Ding ding ding .... well maybe, this is an unraised pot;

    - 9T is likely, so is J8
    But wait the overagressive loose player just limped UTG - what does that mean?
    - Need a bit more info on these players,
    PokerKai wrote:
    Hero bets $20 into the pot, BB folds, Villain UTG (an extremely loose and slightly over agressive player but not terrible postflop) jumps it to $60, folded around to Hero who just calls.

    OK what does he have that he feels is warranting a reraise?
    - 5 things make sense
    - He is on a total bluff, but thinks your betting a draw - maybe flush draw
    - He has Top Pair - with Q or K kicker, which didnt warrant a raise preflop
    - He slow played an over Pair (AA or KK) - wanting to reraise but didnt get the chance
    - He has a low set or two pair - UTG with 77? probably not if he is overly aggressive, but J8s? that's loose but fits your description
    PokerKai wrote:
    TURN: As

    Hero bets $150, Villain agonizes for a long time and calls.

    Ok why is he agonizing? is it hollywood or does he have a geniunely hard decision?
    - If he is on a bluff, he reraises or folds - with his flush draw a call is horrible but why the hollywood? I dont think you want to show weakness on this call.
    - Top pair, with OK kicker? Well this just got trumped, With the ace. It would be very hard to call given your call of the $40 reraise and an over card to his Jack. If you were on a flush draw then Ax just beat him
    - He slow played overpair - if he was playing AA and he reraised the flop now he is commited to this hand. He just hit top set and got bet into. This would be an agonizing decision. You almost have to fold, however, if you had the str on the flop you would/should have reraised if you were vulnerable to the flush draw to protect it. So he has a shot but again you might not be conventional, a very hard decision.
    - Two pair higher/ lower set - two pair higher probably folds to $150 (pot) bet giving you credit for set or straight, shouldnt be too hard of a decision but just too much on that board beats him. However the lower set has an agonzing decision but is again 50/50 in calling.
    PokerKai wrote:
    RIVER: 4d

    Hero bets $200, Villain agonizes for a long time and calls.

    - Did you think you were good here?

    This looks like a value bet, The pot is $440 and you bet $200 which gives him 3-1 on a call. Your encouraging a call. Unless you know he is a keen player that will see your bet as something begging for a call and laydown top pair or call incorrectly this bet doesnt make alot of sense. If he was on a draw he folds.

    He called grudgingly on the turn and the river couldnt of helped any reasonable hand he was holding. The harder call for him was on the turn. So as to the fact he didnt reraise the river eliminated the str, so I would
    say he had AA or an underset.

    ----
    When he reriased, if you plan was to bet the turn, why not reraise right here? You probably have the best hand, and if he comes over the top again you can lay down at6 a cost of $100 vs your $200 on the turn.
    This would represent a str going for protection of the flush.

    The reraise is a warning bell to you. You could be beat you could be good, but a reraise from an aggressive player doesnt tell you alot.

    Even better is a check call, if he is overly aggressivem, a call sends alarm bells. He probably stiops pressing, typically overvalueing your hand.

    The turn bet really didnt make sense from his side of the table. If you had AJ you porbably reraise preflop with all the limpers, if you had a str you probably reraise his reraise. If you had a draw the A doesn't complete any of them.

    The river bet wasn't enoughand probably shouldn't have been made after the tuirn call., it encourages a call and you only win against one range of hands. Top flop pair.


    So what happened?
  • Redington wrote:
    - 9T is likely, so is J8
    I agree.  These are both likely hands to limp with.  But you can put him off 9T since he only called the river bet, where 9T would have been the nuts.

    My feeling on this hand is that he had JT or J9, top pair with inside straight draw, based mainly on the fact that I would triple the $20 bet on the flop with that hand, just as your villain did.  And you can put him off the Js Ts river flush draw, since he had to agonize the call on the turn.

    Seriously dude, what happened!  I think we all need to know.

    /g2
  • My guess is 9-10 (probably suited).


    The hand analysis you guys have provided so far has been great. But the huge-reraise brings about a question that I have not been able to answer.

    Hero has two pair and checks, Villian bets, Hero makes huge re-raiase.

    This raises two questions in my mind.

    1. Villian is super loose and is on a draw and is willing to call, WHAT DO I DO??!?!?!?!?!?!
    2. Villian has a monster and flat calls. HOW DO I RESPOND ON THE TURN??!?!?!?!?!?

    Let me know what you guys think.


    3. Villian has nothing and makes a huge move on the turn or river. CAN I DROP THIS HAND???!??!?!
  • Shook wrote:
    My guess is 9-10 (probably suited). 
    I dont think so
  • wader wrote:
    Shook wrote:
    My guess is 9-10 (probably suited). 
    I dont think so

    Why not?

    The guys hits his straight and pushes his hand.

    What do you think the answer is? Maybe a set?

    Just curious.
  • Why not?

    The guys hits his straight and pushes his hand.

    Except that he didn't. He called down. T9 is at the very least re-raising the river, even if he's on an elaborate trap the rest of the hand.
  • Is PokerKai waiting for 2 or 3 more pages of commentary before posting the results? Or did he get hit by a bus?
  • Shook wrote:
    wader wrote:
    Shook wrote:
    My guess is 9-10 (probably suited). 
    I dont think so

    Why not?

    The guys hits his straight and pushes his hand.

    What do you think the answer is?  Maybe a set?

    Just curious.



    Villan would pop him on the turn and if not he would deffinately raise on the river.
  • 56 spaids
  • Sorry for the late reply, I just kinda forgot about this hand.

    Anyways, here are some thoughts.

    First off...I think a lot of the responses in this thread were jaded by the fact people got to see the Villains river call.  So I think the discussion would have been more meaningful had I omitted it.

    Secondly, those of you holding your breath for results...time to exhale...the hand was either played properly or improperly irrespective of the end result.

    I just dont like my flop action.  I encouraged action by underbetting the pot, and when I got it (from someone who is willing overplay their hand no less!), I decided to peel and wait for a safe card before leading out again.  

    I also thought my turn bet was a bit weak.  With the stacks being so deep, if my opponent is on a draw, hes not likely to fold.  Hes going to look at my stack and think his implied odds are great, and call.  So I think I could have punished his draw a bit more, while making a raise easier to fold to.  

    After he calls the turn however, I have to feel extremely nervous as the most likely hand I was ahead of  on the flop (TP) just called a pot size bet when the overcard hit.  Im not convinced the amount I bet is going to get called too often by a worse hand when I show obvious strength on the turn.
  • So what did he have???
  • My only complaint with your play is the flop.

    I tend to ask myself, "Will this player make a mistake?" With your flop there are two basic mistakes he may be prone to make: (1) Calling when they should not; or (2) Betting when they should not. From your description, he seems more likely to make mistake number 2. So, give him the opportunity to either be checking or betting as you did. He obliges and raises. I would, then, put him to the test and make a pretty big raise. Otherwise you have, sort of, given credence to his error.

    Otherwise, I think it looks good to me. Just about any draw he is on is getting poor odds on the turn.
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