KK early in tourney
Hello Dave and others,
Just wondering if any of you would have played the following hand differently:
Freeze out tourney:
15 minute rounds. 5000 starting stack. Round 1 25-25 blinds.
I start in seat 6, button is in seat 10.
PLayer in Seat 8 has raised 2 out of first 4 hands to 300 and 400 into the 50$ in blinds. No one calls. He seems to think he is being a bully... oh well...
IN my Big Blind hand, he raises again, this time to 500. It is folded around to me. I am thinking, please, let me have a hand. I have KK.
What to do. I re raise him to 1000. He goes all in immediately (very quickly and forcefully). I think, "he is trying to make me think he has AA". I think not. I am really hoping he has something like 99-JJ, but if he has AA, so be it.
I call all in and turn up my KK immediately. He has a pained look. He has A Q offsuit.
Of course, you know how it ends... yes A on turn and IGHN.
My question is. Would any of you take issue with my re-raise pre flop?
If I simply call his 500, the flop comes J J 2. I think I would check, he would bet and I would raise him all in and I do not see how he could call (unless he simply bet all in after I check which he may have).
Anyone simply call his raise? I would be interested in any comments.
Thanks
Black99.
Just wondering if any of you would have played the following hand differently:
Freeze out tourney:
15 minute rounds. 5000 starting stack. Round 1 25-25 blinds.
I start in seat 6, button is in seat 10.
PLayer in Seat 8 has raised 2 out of first 4 hands to 300 and 400 into the 50$ in blinds. No one calls. He seems to think he is being a bully... oh well...
IN my Big Blind hand, he raises again, this time to 500. It is folded around to me. I am thinking, please, let me have a hand. I have KK.
What to do. I re raise him to 1000. He goes all in immediately (very quickly and forcefully). I think, "he is trying to make me think he has AA". I think not. I am really hoping he has something like 99-JJ, but if he has AA, so be it.
I call all in and turn up my KK immediately. He has a pained look. He has A Q offsuit.
Of course, you know how it ends... yes A on turn and IGHN.
My question is. Would any of you take issue with my re-raise pre flop?
If I simply call his 500, the flop comes J J 2. I think I would check, he would bet and I would raise him all in and I do not see how he could call (unless he simply bet all in after I check which he may have).
Anyone simply call his raise? I would be interested in any comments.
Thanks
Black99.
Comments
Against a hyper-aggressive over-betting opponent, simply moving all-in is the superior to raising the minimum.1
You are involved with a player who clearly does not know what he is doing, and are generally going to be missing a pre-flop value bet of ($5,000 - $x), where $x is your pre-flop re-raise size. You are in a simple, value-based poker situation here.
Expect to be called here by an enormous range of hands, AQo included.
As the hand actually played out, you have a clear call of the final all-in raise. There is no good reason to put this opponent on exactly AA. In fact, due to the WPTFPS, I'd expect a donkey-esque opponent to Hollywood with Aces, rather than instantly moving in.
ScottyZ
1Technically, $25 more than the minimum.
I totally agree, and would expect this particular opponent to call the all-in pre-flop bet with a BIG BIG BIG range of hands.
And I mean big.
ScottyZ
Fixed my post.
Mike
PS. Do you really mean big??? Please clarify.
I don't think he was being sarcastic this time...
http://twoplustwo.com/magazine/current/sklansky1005.html
Maybe Scotty can interpret it to fit the OP.
Scotty, are you saying that your move after his raise to 500 is to simply move in?
My thought was that he would call a small raise with a smaller pair, or hands like 9-10 or K-J, or possibly push all in trying to get me to fold, whereas he likely folds these hands to the all in move??
I like the bigger raise, to 2000.
Yes, when confronted with the pre-flop action "$475 to call", I would have raised all-in.
The opponent has already demonstrated that he probably has sufficient Gomer-nature that the range of hands he would call a pre-flop all-in bet with is
BIG
ScottyZ
As big as this weeks 6/49 jackpot? That big?
Or Big as in the infinite possiibilties of the Universe?
This is the exact reason why I absolutely hate the min reraise. It doesn't do anything to define your opponents hand. You're giving him great implied odds to bust you. Punish him. I favour the raise to 2k, but Scotty's argument to push is interesting as well. A push may look like a massive overbet. It may look like "I know you don't have a hand, so I'm going to take you off this pot right here". Other guy will reason: "He thinks I'm just crazy, but I have a REAL hand this time with: (AK, AQ, AJ, AT, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88, 77, etc...)" So as Scotty says his range of hands for calling your push is BIG. So in short he may put you on a much worse hand than AQo and make the call.
You have a huge advantage preflop. you are AT LEAST 2:1 here and likely closer to 70:30 or 80:20 or better. You do not want to wait and see a flop and then win his 500, you want to stack him. Also giving up on an A-high flop automatically is way too weak. And why do we even think he has an ace? Could he not have any 2 cards here? No offense but your line is extremely weak-tight, and this is coming from a guy who has weak-tight tendencies. If you can get him all-in preflop here not doing so is giving up way too much value since you're less likely to get him all-in postlfop. No point slowplaying to trap him if he's willing to get it all-in preflop anyways.
Umm, you do realize KK vs. Ax is like a 70-30 advantage right? This is still too small of an edge for you?
good point, of course...and I know this, I was putting myself in his shoes, 5th hand of a freeze out...I tend to play far to weak-tight early in freeze out tournaments, come to think of it likely I'm far to weak in the middle and end as well...I think you're right it's better then 70:30 odds and on second thought my thinking is quite retarded.
Yes, I want 100:0.
Ahh fuck it, crazy pineapple is my game now!
My thinking was that if I re-raise all in, or even to 2000, he will likely fold, and I want all of his chips.
I thought that this player would re-raise all in if I min raised him, which he did, and I beat him into the pot with my chips calling his all in bet.
If this was a typical player who was not making huge overbets every second hand, I would have certainly raised to 2000-2500, however, no good player makes the 500 raise in that spot.
Oh well.
I wanted the money in the pot pre flop and there it was. My intention with the OP was to see if anyone favoured the weak tight play of calling his bet and check raising him all in on the ace-less flop (which in hindsight I am fairly certain would have worked unless he goes all in on the flop, but I do not think this player would have done that).
I think the problem with Scotty's re-raise all in is that there are too many hands that even crazy player folds in that spot. Turns out that the hand he had was not one of them, but something like K-10 etc he would have, whereas he may call the 2000 bet.
I absolutely do not want to take down his 500 chip and nothing else... but I guess that avoids the risk of going bust.
I honestly put him on A X or a small pair, which makes me a 70-30 favourite (more or less). Ill take my chances at any stage of a tourney.
Thanks for the comments
Black99
I would NOT reach this conclusion without more evidence. The blinds are simply not that much. He may have legitimate hands.
I do the same. Especially the classic "strong is weak tell."
Woohoo! Our plan has worked perfectly. We are almost 72% to win. I will gamle all of my chips with that edge almost ANYTIME.
Your thinking is backwards. Do you want to win 500 and get him off the hand or do you want to win 5000 72% of the time. I will take option "B" please.
Once you see KK you should be thinking "How can I bust him?" You succeeded in your quest.