Hand for discussion
This is my first attempt at displaying a hand I just played, so be nice. Read on the villian is that he is a solid player who mixes up his style quite abit.
PokerStars Game #2754496060: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2005/10/08 - 12:24:16 (ET)
Table 'Kythera' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: beready ($17.25 in chips)
Seat 2: GIMEDAT ($23.90 in chips)
Seat 3: ckgolfer ($57 in chips)
Seat 4: 24 is King ($104.10 in chips)
Seat 5: LuckyMD ($20.10 in chips)
Seat 6: Ganado7 ($11.70 in chips)
Seat 7: GoingGray ($37.20 in chips) HERO
Seat 8: ballinsence5 ($25.40 in chips)
Seat 9: 345Play ($43 in chips)
GIMEDAT: posts small blind $0.25
ckgolfer: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to GoingGray [Qh Th]
24 is King: folds
LuckyMD: calls $0.50
Ganado7: calls $0.50
GoingGray: calls $0.50
ballinsence5: folds
345Play: calls $0.50
beready: folds
GIMEDAT: folds
ckgolfer: checks
*** FLOP *** [6h 6s 3h]
ckgolfer: checks
LuckyMD: checks
Ganado7: checks
GoingGray: bets $0.50
345Play: folds
ckgolfer: raises $1.50 to $2
LuckyMD: folds
Ganado7: folds
GoingGray: calls $1.50
*** TURN *** [6h 6s 3h] [7h]
ckgolfer: bets $3
GoingGray: calls $3
*** RIVER *** [6h 6s 3h 7h] [3s]
ckgolfer: bets $10
GoingGray: folds
ckgolfer collected $12.15 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $12.75 | Rake $0.60
Had him with a boat, but I'm wondering if I made the right call here. Should have raised at the turn I think of just calling him down. Advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
PokerStars Game #2754496060: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2005/10/08 - 12:24:16 (ET)
Table 'Kythera' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: beready ($17.25 in chips)
Seat 2: GIMEDAT ($23.90 in chips)
Seat 3: ckgolfer ($57 in chips)
Seat 4: 24 is King ($104.10 in chips)
Seat 5: LuckyMD ($20.10 in chips)
Seat 6: Ganado7 ($11.70 in chips)
Seat 7: GoingGray ($37.20 in chips) HERO
Seat 8: ballinsence5 ($25.40 in chips)
Seat 9: 345Play ($43 in chips)
GIMEDAT: posts small blind $0.25
ckgolfer: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to GoingGray [Qh Th]
24 is King: folds
LuckyMD: calls $0.50
Ganado7: calls $0.50
GoingGray: calls $0.50
ballinsence5: folds
345Play: calls $0.50
beready: folds
GIMEDAT: folds
ckgolfer: checks
*** FLOP *** [6h 6s 3h]
ckgolfer: checks
LuckyMD: checks
Ganado7: checks
GoingGray: bets $0.50
345Play: folds
ckgolfer: raises $1.50 to $2
LuckyMD: folds
Ganado7: folds
GoingGray: calls $1.50
*** TURN *** [6h 6s 3h] [7h]
ckgolfer: bets $3
GoingGray: calls $3
*** RIVER *** [6h 6s 3h 7h] [3s]
ckgolfer: bets $10
GoingGray: folds
ckgolfer collected $12.15 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $12.75 | Rake $0.60
Had him with a boat, but I'm wondering if I made the right call here. Should have raised at the turn I think of just calling him down. Advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Comments
He limped in, and from a solid player you have no definition of his hand except he is in the lead.
He doesnt know you hit your hand on the turn... You should have let him know with a reraise.
He has to give you credit for calling on the flop for a 6 or a flush draw. When he bets the turn and you just call, he has set you up to bet big on the end.
Being in the big blind and being a solid player he could have checked with ANYTHING.
However, the most likely possibility is a super tricky play with the boat, or a scared bet with a straight (45). However, without the reraise on the flush you hit, then he probably figures you for a 6 or 3. The bet on the end is nearly a pot bet which means value or go away, it would depend on the his pot bets before.
- because you didn't define your hand on the turn, nor his, you let him take the lead in the hand. That being said your forced to laydown to the $10 bet because you dont know he could have a 6, 3, or 67, all of which beat you, he could also have a baby straight or lower flush.
- However if you reraise on the turn, he should give you credit for the flush. If he has a 6, a 3, or a 7 he should fold, a call from here with anything but the 67, 36 boat is a mistake on his part.
So if you looking for the feedback, it was being too timid with your flush (which was easily beaten) and frankly too passive preflop. With two limpers in front, I would raise if I was playing QTs (again thats IF i was going to play QTs not as a general rule), not that it is a horrible play just to call.
As a side note, if this is a solid and tricky player the same bet on the turn is giving you the opportunity to reraise with your flush, which is where he is sitting on 67/63. But not everyone sitting at a .25/.50 table is that foxy so, you don't want to over credit but you need to find out this information and watch out for this player. A reraise is not a bad way for you to invest in future knowledge about the player, and frankly is better then just a straight call for $3 (if you have to fold the river you have NO information about how he bets). However, if he doesn't have it he may see your check raise as having it and lay down his hand which is also a great bit of information
Raising pre-flop behind limpers cuts down your implied odds--- not generally what you want to do with an implied odds hand. If you are most comfortable generally playing a "raise or fold" pre-flop NLHE style, then fold this one.
Flop: A great demonstration of the cost of re-opening the action. I prefer checking here in LLNL. While making a bet may also be reasonable, betting exactly $0.50 into a pot of $2.75 is gross.
Turn: Raise for value here. I would make it around $10 to go.
River: A tough decision given how the hand had has played out. I am pretty sure that if you had raised the turn, you would have been able to check it down because of World Poker Tour Fancy Play Syndrome (WPTFPS).
On the river as the hand actually went, I simply can't put the opponent on a hand. Thinking back to the previous streets, the opponent's play seems pretty odd with the majority of his possible hole cards.
You have shown a lot of weakness throughout the hand, and there is no way your opponent is going to give you credit for a 6. The question, of course, is does he have the 6, or does he simply realize that you do not?
I think this is close enough on the river to be a "need to know your opponent" decision. Is the opponent generally pretty straightforward, or does he often look for effective bluffing situations?
Against an unknown LLNL opponent, I wouldn't fault anyone for calling or folding, though, I would probably lean towards a fold myself.
ScottyZ
I think we have a huge theory difference here.
- If Im playing QTs, I do not want callers behind me. However, I want to make it attractive enough for the BB to call. Perhaps drop on of the early limpers which means I am seeing the flop with 3 people.
- I can easily fold if I get reraised by earlier position, or see the flop with two/three other players
- I am not thinking of the 'implied odds' if I hit my hand, but moreover the odds that I can get one player to drop and represent WHATEVER is on the flop (small pot aggressiveness) with 6-7 players in I have to hit my hand with 2-3 I may not
- if I happen to hit MY hand I am using this as leverage for every 'other' hand, or perhaps I trap someone with tptk, I'm looking to break someone for their whole stack, as opposed to a big multiperson pot
However, my style has ALOT of variance, and you have to be able to change gears quickly. It truly depends on your table image and ability to outplay on the flop. You could have the same hand 10 times in a row and EACH will play differently.
I think the idea that you have to 'hit' your hand comes from a background in limit, where as an ability to represent a multitude of hands gets developed through no limit (fold equity)
- Both styles are HIGHLY affective, Look at Hansen, Cloutier, Brunson and Negraneau all very different styles yet all VERY affective
How often do you bluff Scotty? Can you get someone to fold top pair or overpair? Dio you need to with your style?
I never try to bluff Scotty. The guy will always call me down.
Sorry, I hijacked this thread.
I am refering to more mid limit 1-2NL/5-5NL or $100+ Sit N Go
Thanks for the clarification, figured as much. Way beyond my meagre BR anyways...
Nearly 100% if the time.
I need to have Scotty-Control of my table at all times. So, if your name is Scott, Scotty, or Fitzpatrick McScottsman, you had better get off my table or I'm going to have to bust you.
Nearly 0% of the time in $0.25-$0.50 NL.
I'll simply echo ScoobyD's post. It is lunacy to try to run over a table of $0.25-$0.50 NL players with a hyper-aggressive style.
Just as in low-limit limit poker, nearly all of your bets in LLNL should be for value, and nearly all your calls should be made with strong draws. Pre-flop, QTs (and similar hands) is a good drawing (aka implied odds) hand, but is unlikely to be worth betting for value.
ScottyZ
Ok I have noted the punctuation mistakes, thanks everyone for pointing them out MULTIPLE times
It should be noted as well that not all .25/.50NL games are low limit. I know of one Friday night game where the typical preflop raise is $10 and the reraise is $30. Sometimes the blinds are just a way to way to exclude a dealer puck
That being said... The question remains, if your at a 1-2 game with $400 in front of you and have QTs facing two limpers in front of you, do you raise? I think there is a complete philosphy difference (not right or wrong, just different) that confuses me. I try to apply ScottyZ's, Watt's etc, ssuggestions to my game and they just don't compute. As I am looking for ways to take the hand away and win small pots verses winning huge pots with the best hands?
Perhaps this has been developed via playing SitnGoes at the $20-$40 level and alot of my advice just is completely irrelevant at the $10 or .25/.50nl game?
Agreed. I think if I stepped up to a super-aggressive approach I would probably have the same problems as you trying to shift to a tighter approach. And obviously if you've been successful with that approach then you're doing something right.
I would bluff exactly 0% in such a game.
With such out of line pre-flop betting relative to the blinds, I would simply sit and wait for Group 1 hands.
I would still classify this blind level as LLNL in general. Therefore, I would call most of the time with QTs, unless I felt that there was a decent chance of a pre-flop raise behind me.
At higher limit (cash game) NL, it would depend on the table texutre and skill of the opponents, but it would generally be a call or fold spot for me. If I was going to mix up my play with an occasional raise in such a game, I wouldn't typically choose to do so with an easily dominated hand like QTs.
The former works well in tournaments, while NL cash games (especially at the lower limits, but to some degree at all limits) are generally about playing big pot poker.
ScottyZ
Ah... it's one of THOSE games. You see this a lot in micro-limit play. LOTS of players limp inot LOTS of pots. If you choose to join in this strategy then you are playing a game of implied odds. This means that you must get your hands paid off BUT BUT BUT you must not, yourself, pay off the enemy when you get a small hit and he gets a big one.
Generally, I don't bet out in this spot. You have 4 oppoennts, all limpers. Your semi-bluff is, I think, likely to be called. In this case, try and get your draw cheap. I prefer checking.
What about his raise? YOu are offered $1.50 into a pot of $5. I probably call and take off the turn.
I like your bet here. I would have bet more, though. I think I would have gone about $10. Note, I don't want him to fold, I want him to call. If he has nothing, he folds either way. If he has a set, he has a tough laydown and you want to bet as much as you can that he will still call. In my experience, an overbet is a good idea. He will probably call.
Hmm... tough river. There is $12.50 in the pot. You have to call $10. I think you probably made a nice fold. Tough decision, but I like the laydown. Given your turn bet I think he expects to get called. Disappoint him.
Hey Dave,
I think you missed the turn...he didn't lead, he called....so I think you might change your ending based on this sign of
weakness. The $10 bet on the end looks even better with the final scare card that hit...thoughts?
The call on the turn is not my preference, I would have raised there. Having said that, I still favour a fold on the river. You can only beat a smaller flush or a bluff. It doesn't seem likely that is was he has since the flat call on the turn would put the fear into him with that river card.