What to do when you 2 pair with a str draw on board?

Yayiwin

Just looking for opinions on what took place here.Was my pre-flop play too loose? Should i have bet or raised more on the flop or turn?
This situation confuses me when it comes up and I'm never quit sure what the "rule of thumb" play is or if there is a plan of attack for when it comes up.
As always feel free to criticize or comment on any parts.
Thx Yayiwin


Table Table 37304 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: always_tilts ( $23.10)
Seat 2: toomanyhands ( $22.45)
Seat 3: sparkdoggy ( $98.50)
Seat 4: topone777 ( $33.55)
Seat 5: yoman691 ( $34.10)
Seat 6: PacChris86 ( $20.95)
Seat 7: Yayiwin333 ( $49.25)
Seat 8: BADolata ( $10.33)
Seat 9: Cruzenalong ( $52.85)
Seat 10: Stayin29 ( $49.50)
Stayin29 posts small blind (0.25)
always_tilts posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Yayiwin333 [ 6d, 8d ]
toomanyhands folds.
sparkdoggy folds.
topone777 calls (0.50)
yoman691 folds.
PacChris86 raises (1.50) to 1.50
Yayiwin333 calls (1.50)
BADolata folds.
Cruzenalong folds.
Stayin29 folds.
always_tilts folds.
topone777 calls (1)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7h, 8s, 9h ]
topone777 checks.
PacChris86 bets (3)
Yayiwin333 calls (3)
topone777 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6s ]
PacChris86 bets (3)
Yayiwin333 calls (3)
** Dealing River ** : [ 3s ]
PacChris86 bets (4)
Yayiwin333 calls (4)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $24 | Rake: $1.25
Board: [ 7h 8s 9h 6s 3s ]
always_tilts balance $22.60, lost $0.50 (folded)
toomanyhands balance $22.45, didn't bet (folded)
sparkdoggy balance $98.50, didn't bet (folded)
topone777 balance $32.05, lost $1.50 (folded)
yoman691 balance $34.10, didn't bet (folded)
PacChris86 balance $9.45, lost $11.50 [ Qc As ] [ high card ace -- As,Qc,9h,8s,7h ]
Yayiwin333 balance $61.75, bet $11.50, collected $24, net +$12.50 [ 6d 8d ] [ two pairs, eights and sixes -- 9h,8d,8s,6d,6s ]
BADolata balance $10.33, didn't bet (folded)
Cruzenalong balance $52.85, didn't bet (folded)
Stayin29 balance $49.25, lost $0.25 (folded)

ScottyZ

The pre-flop play is really a matter of style. If you are comfortable seeing some flops with speculative hands (and, of course, if know how to play them well), there is nothing wrong with playing this hand. Folding here is clearly not wrong either.

On the flop, I think this is a clear fold. Continuing on after this flop puts you in the classic "win a small pot, lose a big pot" NL situation. Exactly what cards are you looking for on the turn and river?

On the turn and river, you are simply lucky that your opponent does not bet enough chips to put you to a difficult decision. These are pretty clear calls. Folding the 2 pair for these relatively small bets seems excessively tight, and raising on either the turn or river will only magnify the "win a small pot, lose a big pot" effect (in whatever direction).

ScottyZ

moose

Really?  Don't you think that is a very unscary flop for our hero?  The villian has raised 3x BB and bet the pot on the flop.  What cards would he raise with?  Our hero is ahead unless he has raised with A8 A9, 10J, an overpair or a small pocket that has hit the board.
A10 villian is drawing to a straight as well.  His 10 would be counterfeited if a 10 hits, by hero's straight so he only has 3 Ace outs in this case, 4 J outs and 2 6 outs. Similar for Q10, K10.  AJ, he is drawing to an inside str8 and has 4 -10s, and 6 overpair outs, same with KJ, QJ.  AQ AK has only 6 outs as well, plus the perfect perfect back door straight draw for AQ.

If villian has pocket sixes, then the villian has one out to win and the rest to chop with hero.  If he has pockets that have hit the board, then hero still has 8 outs to make the str8, same with A8 A9 and can add the 3 outs to hit the 6 and make 2 pr.  Seriously on the flop he only really has to fear the overpair, yet still holds 2 8s, 4 10s, 3 6s, 4 5s = 13 outs to win.  If you want, count the 10s as half outs in case villian was playing pocket Js.



I did this quick so I may have missed some outs and I haven't counted redraws yet but shouldn't our hero raise the flop at the very least to find out where he is and possibly gain a free turn card?

ScoobyD

I tend to side with Scotty on this one. Flop is very coordinated and has only marginally hit hero. You're drawing at the ragged end of a straight, hero can't feel good about either a 6 or T falling. An 8 might be good, but trip eights looks very vulnerable on such a co-ordinated board (JT, 89, etc.). The trouble with the hand is it's so marginal, it's tough to determine if you are ahead, and if you are, it's probably not by much. I probably fold this hand, if there was more people in the pot I might play it, but I don't care to play it heads up...

Our hero is ahead unless he has raised with A8 A9, 10J, an overpair or a small pocket that has hit the board.

And none of these are likely? Note the flop has a heart flush draw which obviously doesn't help hero either. A hand like Axh (especialy if they have 2 overs or a straight draw) is in great shape vs Hero's hand.

On the turn and river, you are simply lucky that your opponent does not bet enough chips to put you to a difficult decision.

The fence sitting made by the opponent is staggering. I'd have been ready to check/fold the turn, the tiny bet is odd. When he gets called here though and then makes the tiny river bet I'm utterly lost though...

SirWatts

I would fold preflop but calling is ok. Assuming you knew your opponent is even half as bad as he played in this hand then you played it perfectly postflop. I'm only worried about this flop against a particularly crazy/aggressive opponent who might bluff me off my weak straight/2 pair. In general this is an excellent flop against most of your opponent's holdings, though obviously you don't have as big implied odds as you would normally like since you never make anything close to the nuts. However when you consider you may have the best hand already and if not you likely have 13 outs it seems like too much hand to fold. When you make 2 pair it is a typical way ahead/way behind situation so calling down is best. If he starts throwing out big bets you can get away and if he does happen to be bluffing it shouldn't be too hard to trap him later on.

moose

if there was more people in the pot I might play it, but I don't care to play it heads up...

I think the fewer the better. Otherwise it is more likely he is up against a straight. I still say it is MORE likely villian has missed this low flop. A reraise represents the straight, probably takes the pot right there. In every case hero has between 8-13 outs to win, if he is not already ahead and at best villian has 10 outs if he holds a J. Doubtful he raised preflop with 10J and then bet the flop - more likely he would have checked to slow play his nut straight, even betting out with a straight draw if he holds a 10 would be strange. Most likely, with the preflop raise, villian holds high face cards or an overpair and on the overpair hero has 13 outs and is the favourite to win the hand.

Ok fear the 10 on the turn if we think villian holds J, but it is just as likely villian holds a 10 and is now counterfeited.

Seriously, what was the point of calling the hand with these cards - there has to be some thought in this. I would assume the thinking would be - villian has high cards or pocket - I call with these cards with the intention of hitting 2 pr, flush draw or straight draw. Didn't we get our straight draw? If this is now a scary flop, when we got what we wanted, why did we call in the first place?

Redington

I havent read any of the other responses yet so this may be repetative;

I love the call with 6-8d, frankly I might even raise given postition

But, the post flop play is weak-passive.

FLOP: You really don't know where you are here, you have a great flop! open ended/middle pair but what does his bet mean?
- By calling your given him a chance to take this pot on the turn

Turn: Wow another great card, but did he have JT? He bet it and a smallish amount, perhaps a value bet perhaps a scared bet, but by just calling you dont know.
- again just by calling he can easily take this pot on the river

River: Brick, but you have no idea where you stand. Your forced to call up to $10, and maybe lay it down if it is more.

Oh you won, BUT you won because your player was weak. He could have taken this hand on the turn and river and didnt.

-- if your going to play 86d, you have to define your opponent when you do hit the flop. If you can't reraise with mid pair, then you can't play speculative hands. You just wont get the value out of the hands for the times your good and you end up loosing alot more when your bad.

pkrfce9

Redington wrote:

I love the call with 6-8d, frankly I might even raise given postition

And the award for understatement goes to...

Great response actually Red. I agree with your line of thinking here. If you play speculative hands, play them aggressively.

Redington

Wow,

I am very surprised by Scottyz and Sir Watts...

This is a cash game, no real need to be defensive. This is an exacting hand to set the tone on. On the flop you have Mid pair with a str draw...that is a GREAT flop for this hand.

However, I think the defensiveness falls into the multitabling/wait for the nutz scenarios.

Just calling on this flop is fine if you flopped the full straight, but in this case you havent defined his hand and gave two opportunities to take this hand away from you.

Again difference of opinion. I don't think either mode of thought is right or wrong, but trying to run down the middle of tight and aggressive typically puts you into weak passive. You either have to fold this hand preflop, or play it aggressively when you hit the flop.

ScottyZ

I think this is worth thinking about again:

Exactly what cards are you looking for on the turn and river?

You aren't going to make much money on the turn and river if you do improve your hand against a sane opponent. And you aren't going to make much money if you do not improve your hand on the turn and river because you are sane.

Playing LLNL, I would typically reserve my aggressive play for when I have strong hands, not for attempting to push people around when I have a weak hand like a pair of 8's, 6 kicker.

Obviously in non-low limit NL, this is a playable flop holding any two hole cards due to the multitude of scare cards. This is a key idea in Super System, which primarily discusses NL played with opponents who are playing at a higher level than LLNL players, and who are capable of understanding hands that you represent.1 Bringing Doyle's hyper-aggressive style to a LLNL table would be nothing more than donating to the calling stations.

Don't get overly excited about making strong aggressive moves against LLNL players. You will be disappointed.

A quick example:

Suppose that in this hand, the turn card was instead a Jack, and your opponent instead holds pocket Aces. (What the heck, you might as well leave him with the AJ.) There is no way a typical LLNL player will fold if you make a big bet on the turn. (Oddly enough, this is the FTOP-correct play.) Many higher limit NL players could let go of their Aces here.

Does this contradict what I was saying before about a sane opponent not paying you off if you improve your hand? It sure does. You will absolutely be able to make enormous bets which will be paid off by your opponent big-time if all of the following happen:

1. You catch a 5 which is not the 5h.
2. Your opponent has some decent (though possibly marginal) holding like an overpair.
3. No re-draw card comes which either (or both) shuts down your betting or gives your opponent the better hand.

On what same have called a "great flop", some others may argue that you have a 3-out draw, which is far worse than a "standard" 3-out draw, due to the parlay required above.

You either have to fold this hand preflop, or play it aggressively when you hit the flop.

Yes, of course. The difficulty here is understanding that you may not have hit this flop.

ScottyZ

1Of course, at this point, you also start encountering players who understand that you may be representing a hand, and who may know that you know that they understand that you may be representing a hand, etc, etc.

SirWatts

Redington wrote:

Just calling on this flop is fine if you flopped the full straight, but in this case you havent defined his hand and gave two opportunities to take this hand away from you.

Again a read is important. Is our opponent capable of taking this hand away from us? If so then we may need a different plan. I think most players in the .25/.50 NL games are either terrible and bluff way too much and we can find a better spot to trap them then this (as Scotty has pointed out this is a dangerous flop) or they are weak tight and they are not capable of moving us off our hand. I think against the latter player calling is clearly best because we get to see another card to try to improve and he is going to define his hand for us if a blank comes on the turn without us wasting any extra money. Or if we improve to a weak straight or 2 pair we should be able to find out if he's made a better hand fairly cheaply. Against an aggressive/tricky player I'm not sure of the best line. If he's really going to fire big bets onto such a scary board with just overs then we can definitely find better spots to trap him so I don't hate folding. My problem with raising the flop is that I may find myself in a difficult spot if he comes over the top. OK after thinking about it I can fold to a big reraise so that line seems fine against an aggressive player if we want to try to stay out of trouble.