Limit (with no cap heads up) vs NL Mentality when Flopping a Monster
Sorry, but I could not think of a better title. I was recently grinding through a Crypto skin at the 1/2 limit bonus table rockgardens when an interesting hand happened. The opponent just sat down and posted a BB.
Game #975717133: Hold'em FL ($1/$2) - 2005/10/04 - 21:17:30 (UK)
Table "Mobile" Seat 10 is the button.
Seat 1: scrmlovr3 ($56.50 in chips)
Seat 2: garddan ($84 in chips)
Seat 3: Perplex ($49.50 in chips)
Seat 4: kellmich sits out
Seat 5: PokerPaul ($43 in chips)
Seat 6: thekdawg1 ($76.75 in chips)
Seat 7: Toffer001 ($55.65 in chips)
Seat 10: Canuck ($33.50 in chips)
scrmlovr3: posts small blind $0.50
garddan: posts big blind $1
Toffer001: posts big blind $1
HOLE CARDS
dealt to Perplex
Perplex: raises $2
PokerPaul: folds
thekdawg1: folds
Toffer001: calls $1
Canuck: folds
scrmlovr3: folds
garddan: folds
FLOP
[6s 6h Th]
Perplex: bets $1
Toffer001: raises $2
Perplex: calls $1
Now, I figured on any turn (except possibly a 6) I would be check raising and reraising forever if it allowed, and much to my surprise it started happening like that
TURN
[6s 6h Th][Kd]
Perplex: checks
Toffer001: bets $2
Perplex: raises $4
Toffer001: raises $4
Perplex: raises $4
Toffer001: raises $4
Perplex: raises $4
Toffer001: calls $2
Now, here is the bizarre question of my post. I usually play NL and I would call an all in or reraise all in without a thought, figuring if he had 66 I was destined to lose (did not seem he would have KK without a reraise preflop). However, after I check raised and then 4 bet and then 6 bet I started wondering if I should keep raising if he 7 bet. I had a monster without question, but the board was such that unless he was a complete nutcase there really were not that many hands to be raising non stop with.
Does it make any sense whatsoever that in playing limit I was almost ready to put on the brakes after a bunch of raises here when in NL I would happily call an all in? I just found that odd and I could not explain it.
Nonetheless, once he called my 6-bet, I figured I had him beat and the hand ended simply
RIVER
[6s 6h Th Kd][5s]
Perplex: bets $2
Toffer001: calls $2
SHOW DOWN
Perplex: shows (A Full House, Tens full of Sixes)
Toffer001: mucks hand
Perplex collected $35.75 from Main pot
I never knew what he had.
I suppose this is not the most thought provoking subject and it certainly is an unusual situation, but would anyone stop raising on the turn , and if so when?
On a side note, I am not sure what other sites allow the unlimited raising when heads up (I think the street has to start with only 2 players in it as well or else it is capped at 4 bets), however once in a while it does lead to some very amusing hands. Probably the one that made me chuckle the most was this one that a friend sent me after he won
Game #446918014: Texas Hold'em Limit ($1/$2) - 2005/05/07 - 20:57:37 (UK)
Table "Aldebaran" Seat 2 is the button.
Seat 1: Shockeroo ($39.63 in chips)
Seat 2: garddan ($17 in chips)
Seat 3: ZeroIQ ($119.37 in chips)
Seat 4: Gunonfire ($43.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Rcracker ($43 in chips)
Seat 6: kbrooks ($95.75 in chips)
Seat 7: bazza29 ($399.75 in chips)
Seat 8: Noone ($39.75 in chips)
Seat 9: LillaMy ($33.25 in chips)
Seat 10: ZippyGH sits out
ZeroIQ: posts small blind $0.50
Gunonfire: posts big blind $1
HOLE CARDS
dealt to Rcracker [As Qs]
Rcracker: calls $1
kbrooks: calls $1
bazza29: folds
Noone: folds
LillaMy: calls $1
Shockeroo: raises $2
garddan: folds
ZeroIQ: folds
Gunonfire: folds
Rcracker: calls $1
kbrooks: calls $1
LillaMy: calls $1
FLOP
[2s Js 4d]
Rcracker: checks
kbrooks: checks
LillaMy: bets $1
Shockeroo: raises $2
Rcracker: calls $2
kbrooks: folds
LillaMy: calls $1
TURN
[2s Js 4d][Ks]
Rcracker: checks
LillaMy: checks
Shockeroo: bets $2
Rcracker: raises $4
LillaMy: folds
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: calls $2
RIVER
[2s Js 4d Ks][3c]
Rcracker: bets $2
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: raises $3.63 and is all-in
Rcracker: calls $1.63
SHOW DOWN
Shockeroo: shows [4h Jh] (Two Pairs, Jacks and Fours, King high)
Rcracker: shows [As Qs] (A Flush, Ace high)
Rcracker collected $83.76 from Main pot
Game #975717133: Hold'em FL ($1/$2) - 2005/10/04 - 21:17:30 (UK)
Table "Mobile" Seat 10 is the button.
Seat 1: scrmlovr3 ($56.50 in chips)
Seat 2: garddan ($84 in chips)
Seat 3: Perplex ($49.50 in chips)
Seat 4: kellmich sits out
Seat 5: PokerPaul ($43 in chips)
Seat 6: thekdawg1 ($76.75 in chips)
Seat 7: Toffer001 ($55.65 in chips)
Seat 10: Canuck ($33.50 in chips)
scrmlovr3: posts small blind $0.50
garddan: posts big blind $1
Toffer001: posts big blind $1
HOLE CARDS
dealt to Perplex
Perplex: raises $2
PokerPaul: folds
thekdawg1: folds
Toffer001: calls $1
Canuck: folds
scrmlovr3: folds
garddan: folds
FLOP
[6s 6h Th]
Perplex: bets $1
Toffer001: raises $2
Perplex: calls $1
Now, I figured on any turn (except possibly a 6) I would be check raising and reraising forever if it allowed, and much to my surprise it started happening like that
TURN
[6s 6h Th][Kd]
Perplex: checks
Toffer001: bets $2
Perplex: raises $4
Toffer001: raises $4
Perplex: raises $4
Toffer001: raises $4
Perplex: raises $4
Toffer001: calls $2
Now, here is the bizarre question of my post. I usually play NL and I would call an all in or reraise all in without a thought, figuring if he had 66 I was destined to lose (did not seem he would have KK without a reraise preflop). However, after I check raised and then 4 bet and then 6 bet I started wondering if I should keep raising if he 7 bet. I had a monster without question, but the board was such that unless he was a complete nutcase there really were not that many hands to be raising non stop with.
Does it make any sense whatsoever that in playing limit I was almost ready to put on the brakes after a bunch of raises here when in NL I would happily call an all in? I just found that odd and I could not explain it.
Nonetheless, once he called my 6-bet, I figured I had him beat and the hand ended simply
RIVER
[6s 6h Th Kd][5s]
Perplex: bets $2
Toffer001: calls $2
SHOW DOWN
Perplex: shows (A Full House, Tens full of Sixes)
Toffer001: mucks hand
Perplex collected $35.75 from Main pot
I never knew what he had.
I suppose this is not the most thought provoking subject and it certainly is an unusual situation, but would anyone stop raising on the turn , and if so when?
On a side note, I am not sure what other sites allow the unlimited raising when heads up (I think the street has to start with only 2 players in it as well or else it is capped at 4 bets), however once in a while it does lead to some very amusing hands. Probably the one that made me chuckle the most was this one that a friend sent me after he won
Game #446918014: Texas Hold'em Limit ($1/$2) - 2005/05/07 - 20:57:37 (UK)
Table "Aldebaran" Seat 2 is the button.
Seat 1: Shockeroo ($39.63 in chips)
Seat 2: garddan ($17 in chips)
Seat 3: ZeroIQ ($119.37 in chips)
Seat 4: Gunonfire ($43.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Rcracker ($43 in chips)
Seat 6: kbrooks ($95.75 in chips)
Seat 7: bazza29 ($399.75 in chips)
Seat 8: Noone ($39.75 in chips)
Seat 9: LillaMy ($33.25 in chips)
Seat 10: ZippyGH sits out
ZeroIQ: posts small blind $0.50
Gunonfire: posts big blind $1
HOLE CARDS
dealt to Rcracker [As Qs]
Rcracker: calls $1
kbrooks: calls $1
bazza29: folds
Noone: folds
LillaMy: calls $1
Shockeroo: raises $2
garddan: folds
ZeroIQ: folds
Gunonfire: folds
Rcracker: calls $1
kbrooks: calls $1
LillaMy: calls $1
FLOP
[2s Js 4d]
Rcracker: checks
kbrooks: checks
LillaMy: bets $1
Shockeroo: raises $2
Rcracker: calls $2
kbrooks: folds
LillaMy: calls $1
TURN
[2s Js 4d][Ks]
Rcracker: checks
LillaMy: checks
Shockeroo: bets $2
Rcracker: raises $4
LillaMy: folds
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: calls $2
RIVER
[2s Js 4d Ks][3c]
Rcracker: bets $2
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: raises $4
Rcracker: raises $4
Shockeroo: raises $3.63 and is all-in
Rcracker: calls $1.63
SHOW DOWN
Shockeroo: shows [4h Jh] (Two Pairs, Jacks and Fours, King high)
Rcracker: shows [As Qs] (A Flush, Ace high)
Rcracker collected $83.76 from Main pot
Comments
I would definately check that out to see what he was so crazy about and mark him on the buddy list. :fish:
In a limit game, if both players have plenty of chips in front of them, and someone raises it to 6 bets within a betting round, it is nearly impossible that the player is bluffing. He believes he currently has a very good hand. This does not necessarily mean that it actually is the best hand (and certainly does not mean that you should fold), but it is almost certainly not a stone cold bluff.
Could a player get all-in for a lot of chips in a NL game with complete rags? Yes, of course.
If your opponent in the first hand is relatively competent, then he has K6. A player who is not very skilled (or simply too agressive) might have merely trip 6's on the turn.
ScottyZ
The cryptologic sites do not show you the mucked hands unfortunately in their hand histories.
I agree with what you have said on the difference between NL and limit, I guess my question now would be how many raises would you make before calling check/calling river (assuming another 10 didnt hit). I was going to go into call mode if he raised one more time.
At some sites you can, and at some you cannot. (Also, at some sites, it depends on whether or not you were actually dealt into the hand yourself.)
ScottyZ
As the hand went, I think I'd probably go ahead and make it 3 bets on the river, but not 5.
On the turn, I'd probably go up to around 7 or 8 bets, and then (if it got that high on the turn) possibly just check-call on the river.
On the flop, I don't know when I would have stopped raising. Knowing that I would be leading out on the turn (assuming a 6 doesn't fall), I would be putting in a lot of flop bets, maybe even 15 or 20 small bets.
ScottyZ