Any other way I should have played this?
Multitable tournament, halfway through, blinds are 75/150 and 5 handed at our table. I'm on the button and the blinds are shortstacked with 300 and 500 or so left after posting. 1 fold and the big stack calls (he's been calling with some moderate strength hands, likes to gamble and has been aggressive with his chip lead). I have 1300 and have the :kd:qs and I raise 500. The blinds fold and the first caller calls my bet.Â
Flop comes:
:ts:js::9s
Giving me the straight, a queen high flush draw and an open ended straight flush draw. I don't like the 3 spades so I push my remaining 650 into the pot of 1525. I get called and shown the :as:3s and I don't catch my straight flush draw.
Looking back, I think I should have gone all in pre-flop to pick up the blinds and the initial call as I didn't have much of a stack left. How should I have played this?
Flop comes:
:ts:js::9s
Giving me the straight, a queen high flush draw and an open ended straight flush draw. I don't like the 3 spades so I push my remaining 650 into the pot of 1525. I get called and shown the :as:3s and I don't catch my straight flush draw.
Looking back, I think I should have gone all in pre-flop to pick up the blinds and the initial call as I didn't have much of a stack left. How should I have played this?
Comments
Correct. Rule of thumb: If you are going to make a move that commits 40-50% of your stack, you are better off putting it all in preflop. You are pot committed and will have to see the river regardless, so get some fold equity out of those 'extra' chips.
1) You really dont want action with this hand
2) The big stack is given the right odds to call your 'little' raise
- 225 in blinds, your 500 and his 150, means it is only 350 to call into 875 pot 2.5-1 on his call
- if he put you on a medium pair, suited connectors, or big face no ace he had the right odds to call
3) By pushing everything in he probably gives you credit for a hand that is better then 2.5-1, more like an ace with a better kicker and thats a HUGE gamble
Your forced to push all in with that stack and the blinds where they are, your forced to do it with ANY cards you want to play, hope for action when your hand is big and hope for folds when it aint
That being said, Im not sure I enter into this pot at all - you want to get all your money into uncontested pots
His call in that position could also mean a real powerhouse hoping a small stack pushes all in
His call also pots him into this pot and the big stack may be ready to 'gamble' with the worst of it
-- I don't really like it but you could call behind him to get more people into the pot and hope you flop a monster, problem is your still going broke on this hand with that flop
You have to ask yourself, who is likely to call an all-in from you. The small stacks, possibly. The big stack gambler, quite likely, since he's already in the pot and may consider his hand to be pretty strong. Depends how much of his stack your bet represents. It probably would have been a tough decision for him which is all you can hope for.
Moving in pre-flop is a fine play. Limping is a fine play. Folding is too weak, I think.
Alright, but when do you determine if you have enough chips or not to go all in? 6xBB? 10xBB? Average stack? If the call would take up to 50% or more of your remaining chips?
If you are thinking of calling a bet that would put close to half your stack in the pot, you should probably just move in.
(Added bonus) In terms of the original post - calling to see a flop, I'd hesitate to commit more than 10% of my stack on a non-premium hand.
What are premium hands?
Your list compared to tournament speed will determine if you are correct in pre-flop folds and calls.
I don't know if there is a 'pat' answer for this. I play pretty tight pre-flop. Probably too tight. Until I get down to the 6-7xBB range.
I'm much more likely to play only hands I would raise with when I'm between 7-15xBB. That range of hands increases as my stack dwindles in relation to the blinds and depends on the players still in the hand.
Also depends on whether he sees you as desperate and willing to push less than premium hands. In which case, Ax is amply justified in calling.
You were offering him about 2-1. If you went all in, this drops to around 1.6-1. I'm not sure that is enough of a difference if his stack is monstrous.
However, if you had gone all-in, I think he'd have to give you credit for a bigger Ace or reasonable pocket pair. In that case, he's not quite getting the proper odds to call so you could be right. On the other hand, he might be willing to take on some extra risk for a chance to bust you - not likely halfway through a MTT but also a consideration. Again, depends on your read of the player.
On the whole, I tend to agree with you. Pushing was preferrable to committing half your stack to a medium strength hand. Calling would have been ok but a bit costly at this stage in your stack. I don't mind folding either, although others would not agree with me here.
Exactly!
I don't think the premium hand question really comes into play.
What is more important is that you get into the pot FIRST.
- You need a much better hand to call with then to bet with
- Your stack, even at 6 rounds will be big enough to get others out of the pot
If the big stack is willing to gamble with Qx, Kx, Ax low pairs etc...then your not going to get him out of the pot. Only if he has been playing tight will that work. But would he call your all in behind you with nothing in the pot?
I tend to disagree with Dave as you really dont have the chips to call in this situation, with these or pretty much any cards. The call actually puts you in a position that you will have to push on the flop to make this an EV play. It also could let more players in behind you, what do you do if someone reraises? This also means that someone else is going to have greater odds to call your all in on the flop.
Not that the Stop and Go isnt a good play, but I like to do it with Much stronger hands then Qx.
First into the pot;
At the 10 rounds level, in this example a stack of~ 2250, you can't really call with suited connectors, small pairs, Ax, Kx, Qx etc. Although you can raise in position with these hands if the stacks are similar sizes.
at the 7-8 rounds level ~1500 you eliminate suited connectors and limit face to AT, AQ AJ, AK, KJ ,-KQ, QJ and you have to have position
at the 4-5 rounds level, ~1000 you HAVE to go all in if you are first into the pot with any of the above - `
The object above is to NOT get Callers, But all of a sudden below you want callers
at the 2-3 Round level ~ 500 your pretty much done and looking for the best hand that you can get looking to double up and get callers
The biggest thing I find here is that when stack sizes are mostly even and close to the 10-15round range, then play tightens and you can take HUGE advantage of being first into a pot. Within three or four rounds you will have to change gears and will be hanging out, but you will be doing it with a MUCH better stack.
On the other hand if everyone is playing aggressive, your forced to look for points to get AJ or higher, 99 or higher before you push your chips in. BUT you will get doubled
1300 - me
approx 3500 - him
2000
1000
500
So my all-in would have been a fair chunk of his stack, putting me on top had I won. Â As for how much he likes ace-rag hands, I can't really say as i'm not too good at picking up on other players tendancies yet, but the general vibe I got from his earlier play was that he was a looser gambling type. Â If my read says that he is likely to call if I push, do I wait for a better situation?
Maybe he folds to an all in bet preflop, but;
1) he has limped in UTG, which could be a sign of great strength (or poor play) - With alll the short stacks he is asking to be reraised with a show of weakness, is that what he wanted?
or
2) If he is making a weak play opposite to above, then he likely calls you with Ax and makes a bad move all the way through - but he is still a favorite
3) If both of the above are true, but he has some understanding of his cards there is some merit of going all in preflop
and
4) He has an OK hand mid pair, KJ suited etc and thinks your making a play and his hand is actually better
So lets assign some values - lets say they are all at 25% probability although I think 1 is a alot weightier then 4, however that would indicate a stronger player and I am not sure you have him here as much as sopmeone gamblign and getting lucky, but for arguements sake lets go with 25%
Therefore you have 2 cases where your behind, one where you ahead and one where your a coin flip
so given equal weight to all four
1) -1300
2) - 400 3-2 favorite for him
3) +375 (blinds fold and he folds)
4) +650 (coin flip)
Therefore your - 675 EV if someone calls in the pot ahead of you and you push all in
However, you change the dymanics greatly if your first in with the exact same cards. Hopefully that makes a little more sense. Dave anything to add?