A couple hands...
I felt I played one of these OK, the other one...? Well, that's why I'm posting to get some feedback.
#1)
Texas Hold'em $2-$4 (real money), hand #1,305,271,817
Table Cochabamba, 26 Sep 2005 8:52 PM ET
Seat 1: tom_bdl
Seat 2: gugi1
Seat 3: bsjmorning
Seat 4: BluffHappy x
Seat 5: alimoe3
Seat 6: oneeyedpoker
Seat 7: xAcEdAnUtSx
Seat 8: ScoobD [ 7C,7S ]
Seat 10: yazmer
ANTES/BLINDS
BluffHappy x posts blind ($1), alimoe3 posts blind ($2).
PRE-FLOP
oneeyedpoker folds, xAcEdAnUtSx calls $2, ScoobD calls $2, yazmer folds, tom_bdl folds, gugi1 folds, bsjmorning folds, BluffHappy x calls $1, alimoe3 checks.
FLOP [board cards 6C,5C,3D ]
BluffHappy x bets $2, alimoe3 bets $4, xAcEdAnUtSx folds, ScoobD calls $4, BluffHappy x calls $2.
I figure decent chance my hand is good, but very vulnerable. Anyone fold this given the small pot size? I plan to wait for a safe turn card and then raise the turn, figuring the bet will come from my immediate right.
TURN [board cards 6C,5C,3D,10S ]
BluffHappy x checks, alimoe3 checks, ScoobD bets $4, BluffHappy x calls $4, alimoe3 calls $4.
Well, plan sort of backfired since checked to me, but I now think my hand is probably good.
RIVER [board cards 6C,5C,3D,10S,KH ]
BluffHappy x checks, alimoe3 checks, ScoobD checks.
Anyone bet here? I don't put my opponents as being excessively loose callers.
2) This hand had my very, very puzzled... The only street I KNOW I played OK is preflop.
Texas Hold'em $2-$4 (real money), hand #1,305,464,728
Table Cochabamba, 26 Sep 2005 9:51 PM ET
Seat 1: tom_bdl
Seat 2: CrackedPair
Seat 3: bsjmorning
Seat 4: Gregeric
Seat 5: JerseyPlayer
Seat 6: Cava72
Seat 8: ScoobD [ 5D,QS ]
Seat 9: NOVA_SCOTIA
Seat 10: yazmer
ANTES/BLINDS
Cava72 posts blind ($1), ScoobD posts blind ($2).
PRE-FLOP
NOVA_SCOTIA folds, yazmer folds, tom_bdl folds, CrackedPair folds, bsjmorning folds, Gregeric calls $2, JerseyPlayer folds, Cava72 folds, ScoobD checks.
This is where my utter confusion starts. I have this player as a fairly tight-aggressive player. The limp in steal position has me completely boggled. I'm seeing monsters under the bed.
FLOP [board cards QD,6C,AC ]
ScoobD checks, Gregeric checks.
I decide to take the cautious approach and check... Bad?
TURN [board cards QD,6C,AC,3D ]
ScoobD bets $4, Gregeric bets $8, ScoobD calls $4.
I have trouble believing he's pulling the most elaborate trap in history with AA, AQ, QQ and finally grow some testes and bet here, and low and behold I get raised? I consider dumping here (the pot is so tiny it's not worth the trouble) but I'm so utterly confused by his play... I realize as well that me betting the seemingly inconspicuous 3 here may look like a complete bluff. I think the most legit hand I should have worried about would be a Q with a better kicker but wouldn't he have bet the flop there when checked to him? So torn, but I decide my hand is good and call.
RIVER [board cards QD,6C,AC,3D,2S ]
ScoobD checks, Gregeric bets $4, ScoobD calls $4.
This seems fairly standard considering I called the turn...
Thoughts on how well or absudly I played these would be much appreciated...
#1)
Texas Hold'em $2-$4 (real money), hand #1,305,271,817
Table Cochabamba, 26 Sep 2005 8:52 PM ET
Seat 1: tom_bdl
Seat 2: gugi1
Seat 3: bsjmorning
Seat 4: BluffHappy x
Seat 5: alimoe3
Seat 6: oneeyedpoker
Seat 7: xAcEdAnUtSx
Seat 8: ScoobD [ 7C,7S ]
Seat 10: yazmer
ANTES/BLINDS
BluffHappy x posts blind ($1), alimoe3 posts blind ($2).
PRE-FLOP
oneeyedpoker folds, xAcEdAnUtSx calls $2, ScoobD calls $2, yazmer folds, tom_bdl folds, gugi1 folds, bsjmorning folds, BluffHappy x calls $1, alimoe3 checks.
FLOP [board cards 6C,5C,3D ]
BluffHappy x bets $2, alimoe3 bets $4, xAcEdAnUtSx folds, ScoobD calls $4, BluffHappy x calls $2.
I figure decent chance my hand is good, but very vulnerable. Anyone fold this given the small pot size? I plan to wait for a safe turn card and then raise the turn, figuring the bet will come from my immediate right.
TURN [board cards 6C,5C,3D,10S ]
BluffHappy x checks, alimoe3 checks, ScoobD bets $4, BluffHappy x calls $4, alimoe3 calls $4.
Well, plan sort of backfired since checked to me, but I now think my hand is probably good.
RIVER [board cards 6C,5C,3D,10S,KH ]
BluffHappy x checks, alimoe3 checks, ScoobD checks.
Anyone bet here? I don't put my opponents as being excessively loose callers.
2) This hand had my very, very puzzled... The only street I KNOW I played OK is preflop.
Texas Hold'em $2-$4 (real money), hand #1,305,464,728
Table Cochabamba, 26 Sep 2005 9:51 PM ET
Seat 1: tom_bdl
Seat 2: CrackedPair
Seat 3: bsjmorning
Seat 4: Gregeric
Seat 5: JerseyPlayer
Seat 6: Cava72
Seat 8: ScoobD [ 5D,QS ]
Seat 9: NOVA_SCOTIA
Seat 10: yazmer
ANTES/BLINDS
Cava72 posts blind ($1), ScoobD posts blind ($2).
PRE-FLOP
NOVA_SCOTIA folds, yazmer folds, tom_bdl folds, CrackedPair folds, bsjmorning folds, Gregeric calls $2, JerseyPlayer folds, Cava72 folds, ScoobD checks.
This is where my utter confusion starts. I have this player as a fairly tight-aggressive player. The limp in steal position has me completely boggled. I'm seeing monsters under the bed.
FLOP [board cards QD,6C,AC ]
ScoobD checks, Gregeric checks.
I decide to take the cautious approach and check... Bad?
TURN [board cards QD,6C,AC,3D ]
ScoobD bets $4, Gregeric bets $8, ScoobD calls $4.
I have trouble believing he's pulling the most elaborate trap in history with AA, AQ, QQ and finally grow some testes and bet here, and low and behold I get raised? I consider dumping here (the pot is so tiny it's not worth the trouble) but I'm so utterly confused by his play... I realize as well that me betting the seemingly inconspicuous 3 here may look like a complete bluff. I think the most legit hand I should have worried about would be a Q with a better kicker but wouldn't he have bet the flop there when checked to him? So torn, but I decide my hand is good and call.
RIVER [board cards QD,6C,AC,3D,2S ]
ScoobD checks, Gregeric bets $4, ScoobD calls $4.
This seems fairly standard considering I called the turn...
Thoughts on how well or absudly I played these would be much appreciated...
Comments
I like the way you played it
I don;t bet the river as youre only going to get called by hands that beat you - i don't think a value bet is in order
hand 2
I hate the turn call of the raise... if you think he's bluffing (which i think is all you can beat) you should re-raise
Otherwise i think he has an ace or Q with a higher kicker, and didnt bet this flop to induce your bluff on the turn
WIth your read, I drop it on the turn
PREFLOP: Standard Limp
FLOP: Folding is out of the question against all but the most passive of passive flop raisers.
How many "bad" cards do you honestly feel there are for your hand? I think clubs and deuces are the only ones that obviously hurt your hand and with the pot only being contested 3 handed, its not likely that you have a whole bunch to dodge. Overcards are likely to come no matter what because your pair is small to begin with...and I certainly dont see myself dumping when an overcard hits.
The truth of the matter is, if your hand was 88 or 99, i think theres more reason to coldcall with those bigger pairs then with 77. Do you see why?
I 3bet.
TURN: No other way to play it. Bet.
RIVER: Petty thin value bet. But Id make it. A 6 will pay you off, either of them improving with a ten would have bet the turn, and I since its a passive 2/4 game and the river is 3 handed we are likely beat and can dump to a river checkraise.
HAND 2
PREFLOP: When a tight agressive player limps in on you like that, you should have warning bells go off in your head.
FLOP: Fine
TURN: When someone closes the flop action with a check and a brick hits the turn, and they spring to life. That usually means a monster. Id probably fold...BUT only because of your read. Against any average or unknown player, HU, im taking middle pair Qs to showdown.
RIVER: Call down is the proper line.
thats not a good idea. if he has the monster that we are scared of, he can possibly 4bet and most definitely call us down. if he has the bluff, that we pray he has, he dumps to our 3bet instead of allowing us to gain another bet by inducing a bluff on the river with a check call. 3betting the turn would lose us the most when we are behind and gain us the least when we are ahead.
I'll take a stab at it and venture it's because I have extra outs with the gutshot. Even if the 7 hits which sort of sucks, I pickup a redraw to the boat. As well an 8 gives me more outs as well. I strongly considered 3 betting here. I seemed to remember the "passing on a small edge to exploit a bigger edge later" section on SSHE and thought the decision between calling and waiting to raise on the turn and 3 betting was pretty close.
I agree that NOT 3 betting here (for information) kind of leaves me in a tough guessing stage over whether my hand is currently best (particularly since I'm up against the blinds). I think that's possibly another reason I should have 3 bet. I think the turn action being checked to me probably indicates I'm ahead (unless of course I get check-raised).
Yes, thats exactly why. With 88 and 99, there are a lot more obvious cards that will kill our hand and make it easy for us to dump the turn. But in this situation, were likely only scared of 11ish cards.
The thing to consider tho is, there are no obvious "safe" cards on the turn outside of a trey, a 4 or a 5. Were pretty much committed to continiuing in this hand if the action comes to us on the turn for one bet and a club, deuce or 6 doesnt hit. To exploit the bigger edge on the turn, you have to be commited to raising the turn even if the overcards hit.
I like waiting for the turn against a bigger field, and with a bigger pot to protect.
The pot size aspect I actually got to thinking more and more about after posting. Since it's smallish to begin with I also thought taking the small edge now could be better than waiting (in hindsight of course). Usually I tend to err on the aggressive side on the flop, whereas the turn is where I might slow down if the action is still fierce.  SSHE had me thinking otherwise, but the situation I guess was slightly skewed and in a bit more of a grey area (which is what makes the game so great since every situation is different).
Three betting this flop is far too aggressive. This situatuion is right out of SSHE. You'd 3bet with Aces because your pot equity remains pretty much equal flop to turn, but you don't three bet the tens because your equity either shoots to the moon or it crashes to the ground.
So yes, it may still be slightly profitable for you to 3bet the flop, but it's MORE profitable to get bet into on the turn.
Don't bet for information. Ever.
Personally, I like folding the flop when it's two bets to you. The pot is microscopic. If yer ahead, its not by much and it's going to cost you 3-4BB to get to the river.
As far as hand number 2... Ugly. When I get raised on the turn I'm still 2 BB from showdown (assuming I'm facing a river bet). It will cost me 2 BB for the chance to win 5BB (4BB currently in pot plus the bet on the river) So I'm getting 5:2. So how often does my bluff read have to be right here? 2/7 times just to end up at break even or zero EV. I don't know whether I trust myself that much especially when I've already claimed to be confused by my opponent's play in the hand. I guess I rationalized it with "2nd pair isn't that bad a hand heads-up" and thought my turn bet was for value. Looking back, it seems like an absurd amount of bets to commit to such a tiny pot. One of those hands I played more by feel maybe then stepping back and thinking about the whole risk/reward aspect of the hand.
Results eventually to follow...
Then send him a PM.
He's just offering another opinion, he's not Omniscient.
Scotty gets paid by sloth per word anyway.
I do not get paid to post on this forum.
In the past, I have been paid small amounts by Sloth in return for helping with Mod/Admin of the forum. While I think that this is, of course, generous of him, I neither expect such compensation, nor is there is there any standing arrangement between us in this regard.
My posts are generally long partially because explaining my reasoning thoroughly is one of the best ways I know to learn about poker myself, but mostly because I have learned a lot from poker authors who give detailed explanations of their lines of thinking during sample hands. Not that I would compare my own writing to his, but Bob Ciaffone comes to mind as a great example of this poker writing style.
As for this thread, these are some very interesting hands, which I have actually been thinking about quite a bit. I'm still thinking.
While harsh, this is of course, entirely accurate. At last check, I was merely 92% omniscient.
ScottyZ
I know, and it wasn't meant as a slight to any of the other posters. The thing is the arguments for folding (small pot), calling to wait for the turn (the giant change in pot equity which is bound to occur depending on whether a good or bad cards hits), and the extra outs with the gutshot arguments for raising all hold some water.
Which is why I expect a good 20 minute read (and likely re-read) of his essay outlining the complex forces at work in this thread...
1)Why no raise pre-flop?
2)When the flop comes all low cards under your over pair why not 3 bet the flop?
3)If it were me playing the hand i would hammer that flop even if i limped and when 2 bets come my way after flop i would 3 bet it.then continue firing on all streets.
How did the results turn out for you?
Results dont matter
Because I'm in early position. I don't know the action behind me, and I don't mind encouraging multiple limpers behind me either. In late position I likely throw in a raise with one limper ahead of me.
I'm aware that I'm not going to be flopping an overpair with 77 very often. I thought I had a better opportunity to wait for the turn to raise (when my edge is likely larger). See the rest of the thread.
Which is why I posted the hand to get different viewpoints. I'd be more interested to hear WHY you would take that line. And as far as continuing to fire on all streets: You don't think a 7, a 2, a club, and potentially paint, a 6 etc hitting the board might have some impact on the relative strength of the hand?
I prefer calling here. The alternative would be raising, but I think you'd rather invite callers behind you rather than chase them out. Raising is likely to lead to the undesirable result of being up against 2 or 3 opponents with a mid pocket pair. Such hands prefer to play heads-up (not too realisting in low-limit) or a family pot (highly realistic in low-limit). You are actually unlucky to get no callers behind you.
This, I think, is the difficult decision point. I would not fold here.
I would re-raise.
A general theme of the "Two Overpair Hands" section from SSHE is that you are unlikely to be able to protect your hand on the flop with a raise on the flop in this kind of situation.
The question then, is should we raise for value here? I believe the hand does warrant a value raise.
A key difference in this hand compared to the SSHE pocket Tens example is the number of (active) opponents in the pot. In the SSHE example, there are 4 enemies in, but here only 2 remain. This makes all the difference in the world.
The 77 figures to play as about a 40% to 45% winner against many of your opponents' typical holdings here. Needing only 33% pot equity in order to justify betting or raising for value, I believe you do have an edge that is worth extracting value from.
I would bet here as the hand actually proceeded, or if the flop was 3-bet. The Ten, though an overcard, is not likely enough to hit an opponent to scare me.
This is a great illustration of the fallacy of "betting for information". Having not 3-bet the flop, you have actually gained more information than if you had. Namely, you can put alimio3 on a hand which he does not believe is good (most likely a flush draw) with virtual certainty. Had you 3-bet the flop, alimoe3's check on the turn wouldn't really tell you anything at all.
It is a close decision between betting and checking. I would favour checking.
Checking here makes sense.
I would bet here. Though the opponent limping in from the cutoff is a little screwy, don't lose sight of poker fundamentals. Your hand is too likely to be best heads-up to dog it on the flop.
This street has become awkward after the flop has gone check-check. After betting out, I'd be inclined to give it up and fold to the raise. It would not surprise me to find the opponent with AA here.
Having checked the flop, I would check with the intention of folding here, but it depends on the opponent to some degree. Thinking about it retroactively, this is a reason I would have bet the flop.
If I had bet the flop and been called, I would bet the turn and fold to a raise.
If I had bet the flop and been raised, I would have either dropped on the flop, or gone into check and call mode, depending on the opponent. The latter line would be rare, but the odd time you find an opponent who is mental enough to keep firing with a hand that can't beat a pair of Queens.
Given the actual play of the hand, calling here is automatic. The decision point whether or not to see the hand through to the end was when facing the turn raise.
In the hypothetical post-flop line of bet-call, bet-call, I would check with the intention of calling.
ScottyZ
Great point. If it's 3 bet and cold-called someone could easily be planning a turn CR here with a straight, set or 2 small pair... But, having shown no prior strength, the check certainly looks more like a drawing or a vulnerable hand here (which I'm ahead of).
In hindsight, so very, very true. I think my biggest mistake might have been checking the flop here, since now it may easily look like a turn bluff bet (setting me up for either a rebluff, or a hand that thinks they are still best). The other problem with this hand is I think I may have given my opponent too much credit here. I reviewed a few hands in PT that I had seen him show down and in hindsight some of his preflop plays actually seemed more passive than I would have expected (ie. I saw a button limp with KQs with 2 limpers in ahead of him). Having a player in the wrong box can be very confusing...
RESULTS:
1)
SHOWDOWN
BluffHappy x shows [ AC,4H ]
alimoe3 shows [ 3C,JC ]
ScoobD shows [ 7C,7S ]
ScoobD wins $30.
I actually ran my hand throught the odds calculator on CardPlayer to figure my pot equity here on the flop and turn:
Flop% Turn%
Ac4h 24.7 19.1
Jc3c 42.6 28.6
7c7s 32.7 52.4
A great example of how pot equity can take a big swing going from 2 to 1 card to come. I've got to dodge an A,2,3,7,J and any club. Conversely since both of my opponents are on draws it ends up unlikely I can actually get in the raise on the turn and the only opportunity would have been 3 betting the flop. I think if I 3 bet, an aggressive player likely caps me here with the flush draw plus bottom pair, and I have an interesting decision if I'm bet into on the turn. (I know I know, I can't playback a hand in reverse knowing the results, I just thought it was interesting).
2)
SHOWDOWN
Gregeric shows [ 7C,7D ]
ScoobD shows [ 5D,QS ]
ScoobD wins $27.
While the result was good, I still am not a big fan of my play in this hand. I think I need to pay better attention when multitabling and maybe try not to rush what box I end up putting a player into. In hindsight I'd say this player was tight, but not OVERLY aggressive preflop (and not a liberal stealer). And I would probably also question some of his post flop skills... Although as Scotty said my big fear after being raised on the turn was AA, I just couldn't see this guy limping, and checking the flop in that spot with that hand. it just seemed way too fancy...
Does this make me 92% omniscent as well?
Of course. In fact, that is your minimum OQ.
ScottyZ
sweet...im gonna have it put on a tshirt and parade around, chest swelled with pride