River CR? How often do you guys use it?

ScoobyD

Thoughts on this hand?

Texas Hold'em $2-$4 (real money), hand #1,292,445,627
Table Valencia, 22 Sep 2005 7:27 PM ET

Seat 1: manhitbytran
Seat 2: B8ender11
Seat 3: muddisc
Seat 4: Vegas02
Seat 5: Owlbear
Seat 6: Lanathor
Seat 7: 053057
Seat 8: AliensExist9
Seat 9: ScoobD [ QH,AH ]
Seat 10: hamlet10 x
ANTES/BLINDS
ScoobD posts blind ($1), hamlet10 x posts blind ($2), 053057 posts blind ($2).

PRE-FLOP
manhitbytran folds, B8ender11 calls $2, muddisc folds, Vegas02 folds, Owlbear folds, Lanathor calls $2, 053057 checks, AliensExist9 calls $2, ScoobD bets $3, hamlet10 x folds, B8ender11 calls $2, Lanathor calls $2, 053057 calls $2, AliensExist9 calls $2.

FLOP [board cards 8S,6D,10C ] (Pot 11 SB)
ScoobD checks, B8ender11 checks, Lanathor checks, 053057 checks, AliensExist9 bets $2, ScoobD calls $2, B8ender11 calls $2, Lanathor calls $2, 053057 folds.

(Normally I pretty much auto-bet flop after a pf raise with overs, but decide to mix up my play and check it here).  I think flop was actually closest decision point because I hate getting CR'd here. Folding with the big pot seems too tight though.

TURN [board cards 8S,6D,10C,JC ]
ScoobD checks, B8ender11 checks, Lanathor checks, AliensExist9 bets $4, ScoobD calls $4, B8ender11 calls $4, Lanathor calls $4.

I'm liking my double gutter, but need to be careful if an A or Q hit.

RIVER [board cards 8S,6D,10C,JC,KS ]
ScoobD bets $4, B8ender11 calls $4, Lanathor folds, AliensExist9 folds.

I considered check-raising here, but decided to lead out instead.  If original better had a T, highly likely he's checking behind here and the fact I'm facing the field with 2 bets seems unlikely I'm getting other calls.  I don't know if I can count on MP to lead.  As well, if someone did make a worse straight or has a hand like 2 pair or a set, I'm hoping it will be raised behind so I can 3 bet. 

SHOWDOWN
ScoobD shows [ QH,AH ]
B8ender11 mucks cards
ScoobD wins $52.

SUMMARY
Dealer: AliensExist9
Pot: $54 | Rake: $2
manhitbytran loses $0
B8ender11 loses $14
muddisc loses $0
Vegas02 loses $0
Owlbear loses $0
Lanathor loses $10
053057 loses $4
AliensExist9 loses $10
ScoobD bets $14, collects $52, net $38
hamlet10 x loses $2

I could have swore he had shown down KJo for top 2, but for some reason this isn't shown in the hand history.  Anyways, just curious how often and in which situations you guys use the river CR.  This table seemed too passive, and I thought leading might be better, but maybe I'm wrong...

BBC Z

FLOP [board cards 8S,6D,10C ] (Pot 11 SB)
ScoobD checks, B8ender11 checks, Lanathor checks, 053057 checks, AliensExist9 bets $2, ScoobD calls $2, B8ender11 calls $2, Lanathor calls $2, 053057 folds.

(Normally I pretty much auto-bet flop after a pf raise with overs, but decide to mix up my play and check it here). I think flop was actually closest decision point because I hate getting CR'd here. Folding with the big pot seems too tight though.

Raise the flop when the bet comes from your right and you face the table with calling two cold.. You aren't folding and calling sucks. On that board, someone's probably got a gutshot they can profitably play for one but not for two.. No flush draw, so top pair is likely going to be good enough to win this pot..

PokerKai

PREFLOP: Standard raise for value

FLOP: I like raising it when the button bets.  A lot of low limit players will auto bet the button and you could very well be ahead of him.  Facing the field with 2bets is a good idea in order to clear out some gutshots, small pocket pairs and possibly clean up some outs.

TURN: Nice, picked up outs...check calling is fine here.

RIVER: Check raising probably isnt a good idea here simply because the K is a scare card to the flopped ten. Also, the likely bettor is the button, so a raise will face the 3rd player with 2 cold. Add to the fact that players betting the turn holding last position, often like to take a free showdown and I dont think its close.


I will usually go for checkraises on the river against players that will make thin value bets when i have a strong hand or when I think my opponent improved on the river. 

i.e.  I raise and get 3bet preflop holding JJ.  Flop comes J74.  I lead the flop and turn and he simply calls.  River drops an ace.  Ill often checkraise there.

ScoobyD

Hmm...  I had thought I wanted the other weak calls behind (improving pot odds), being as I'm only on overcards at the moment (some slight chance I guess that my AQ is good since a button bet could be betting something weak or even overcards as well). I guess in hindsight, classic case of raising to improve my chances of winning even if my hand isn't best at the moment (since the pot is big enough to justify it).   Crap.  I know I would have been more inclined to raise WITH position there due to the chance of a free card play.  I always tend to have trouble with those OOP overcard hands...

PokerKai

ScoobyD wrote:

I always tend to have trouble with those OOP overcard hands...

Your not alone. OOP overcards are about as hard as it gets in holdem.

BBC Z

Crap. I know I would have been more inclined to raise WITH position there due to the chance of a free card play.

Its only special because of the bet from your right. You almost always want to raise or fold.

If the bets from your immediate left, the raise is terrible.