Learning Ring Games - Limit vs No-Limit
I've been playing on and off for a bit under a year now, mostly playing offline with friends and have made a couple of uneducated stabs at online play before as well. Online I tried limit and no-limit as well as no-limit SNGs. I lost money at both types of ring games and did decently at the SNGs, but I knew I was over my head and stopped playing. I decided in the last couple of months to really start learning before I take another stab at online play. I read Harrington on Holdem 1 and 2 and it did a lot for my tournament play, but i'm not sure how it would apply to no-limit ring play with the differences between ring and tournament styles. I also got Small Stakes Holdem, but haven't had a chance to read it yet.Â
My question is should I start out focusing on Limit or No-limit? My goal is to become a winning ring player online as well as live. I'm leaning towards limit right now. Are there any other books other than Small Stakes Holdem that I should check out?
My question is should I start out focusing on Limit or No-limit? My goal is to become a winning ring player online as well as live. I'm leaning towards limit right now. Are there any other books other than Small Stakes Holdem that I should check out?
Comments
There are a 1000 "book" threads on this site. If you didn't go to Brock like I did, Small Stakes Hold'em will make sense to you.
Brock students should/could read Lee Jones' book first...then read Skalansky.
Dave Scarf's book is reported a good read for (newer) players.
Hammer
Tournies and ring games are quite different. I started with ring but moved mainly to SNGs as I find them more enjoyable. I'm sure I pretty much suck at ring now - both NL and Limit.
NL and Limit are 2 different beasts. I think Limit is a good place to start. Playing solid Limit should give you a good basis if you want to move into NL. SSL is a good book for this. Super System might help with NL ring but I'm not so sure. There are a few books by Ciaffone that might help you with NL or PL.
Good luck.
As a side question, what limits should I begin at? Â I will likely have a roll for at least 0.5/1 tables, but considering that I am starting, should I start at a lower limit? Â How low should I go?
Yeah, that's me... I think i've been lucky in the right spots to date thoughÂ
You were across from me at the league right? I remember you, but i'm really bad with names...greg right?  I learned the difference between ring and tourney the hard way. I definitely find tournies more enjoyable as well. Only just getting my live nerves under control now though...first big live tourney I was in was the cruise and I had bad nerves that actually gave me an eye tic for a couple of days after.Â
I'll definitely check out those books you mentioned. You seemed to have a really good handle on the different types of odds when we were playing.
Good luck with your reading. Don't be shy about asking questions. This forum can be very helpful.
 I disagree with many others in that I find table experience, whether live or online, to be much more important in learning poker than reading books is. Anyone that has a very sound math background, has taken and succeeded in Finite math should be much less inclined to read. If you have some trouble with math, the reading and understanding of these books become much more important as you need to learn odds, implied odds, and plenty of reasoning.
Although I have over 20 poker titles in the library, I have never read more than a few chapters out of any one in particular.
Poker is all feel and practice, in my opinion. I also believe that if you do have this math background, and you take your game to the tables to learn, the curve is much steeper(quicker) than it would be for those taking the book approach.
Getting to the actual question now, not a doubt, learning limit holdem is the first step. Limit holdem is the game to play to learn the betting sequences, the rules and most importantly the betting patterns that are used by most players in all situations.
Studying betting patterns at limit holdem is so important. This is what separates the players. Some guys have plenty of trouble picking up patterns and thus putting players on hands. Thats OK, keep practicing. These are the people who should now lean somewhat to books for help too. Many players learn fast and quickly become able to put players on hands. You've heard it before, make it practice to try to guess all hands still in action before they are turned up for showdown. It is surprising how easy this becomes over time.
Having the experience from limit and being able to put playerson hands makes you much more ready to succeed in NL cash games.
No Limit is where you want to end up these days, players are horrible and the amount of money in the games is just absurd.
Having people on their hands in No limit is thekey, so you know exactly how much you can extract on each bet and just as important, knowing when to lay a hand down.
One more thing, I would recommend cash games to anyone who plays poker and is serious about it.
It is NEAR IMPOSSIBLE to consistenly beat multi table tournament poker. Yes it is fun, but poker players wouldn't believe if they heard how many players there are that live their lives off of high stakes tourney poker.
Cash games are how you want to make your money, and mastering them should be the focus of future poker hopefuls.
Sitngo's also seem to be very profitable these days. These are the best learning tool for tournament game, and more so the end-tournament game, which is where all the money is made.
Kevin
a) Do I have the BR for the higher limit? (300 big bets) Generally I want to have earned this BR, I don't want to just fuel it from my bank account.
b) Am I beating the limit I'm at? (I generally want a win rate of at least 1BB/100 hands) (I don't really know what a good target win rate is, but I suspect anything over 2BB/100 is decent)
c) Have I played enough hands at said limit to get a decent idea if this is "solid data"? I generally want a minimum of 10k hands at any limit before I start to put any stock in what my win rate is like (and even this is horribly horribly low). Variance happens, so you have to deal with it.
SSHE is a great book, but Lee Jones book is probably better as a starting point if you haven't played much limit. I tend to think of Jones book as a "How to guide", whereas SSHE is giving you the "Why this play is the best vs. a field of donkeys".
interesting theories and comments! Oni and Pkerface....I'm the other guy at the end of the table (league). My theory is that "experience" is your number one asset! You can't just become a great player from learning tips from books, watching it on TV, reading posts on the forum or simply just knowing how to play....it will certainly help but your gonna have to just play more (may cost you), and you'll learn something new each time....different hand situations, reads, emotions, etc, etc...! its true what they say, "a minute to learn, but a lifetime to master!"
Regarding where the bread is, live games is where its at! its so true, that you can't win every tourney you enter but don't get me wrong...tourny is much more enjoyable for the reason being that your just committed to the enrty fee and simply because its a tourney...if you win, you win about 4 or more times the enrty fee and bragging rights that you outplayed everyone else.
Personally, I enjoyed Phil Hellmuth's books, i like his bad beat stories and his style of play although I don't believe his reading capabilities...more like good instincts. Super system is okay, but there's only a small section on NL, and teaches you how to play belly busters!
See you guys next league game!
:c: :d:
For at least the first few thousand hands while I get the hang of limit, i'm going to play at the micro tables at pokerstars. I'm going to follow scooby's checklist before moving up as well.
I prefer live play to online and from what I've heard here, the micro limit play would be about as loose as the low limit live tables, so I figure it'll be good to learn how to play against super-loose opponents. Am I thinking about this the wrong way?
You're bang on. Learn to beat the loose passives, since they're going to be the majority makeup of any low-limit poker table. Learn to identify the odd tight player and adjust to them accordingly. The only minor suggestion I'd have is that I know Stars tables tend to be the tighter variety compared to other online rooms. For the sake of your BR, you may want to try Party. Frequent reload bonuses that are easy to clear, and generally the players are worse. That being said, you can find low-limit tables in the casinos that make online poker look crazy tight... But in terms of quality, the Stars software is top-notch...
For a 'tight' 2-5 Brantford game play .50/1.00 Pokerroom
If you can beat the .50/1.00 over say 1000 hands you will crush Brantford 2-5.
Pokerrroom is nice because even if you don't use Pokertracker it provides pretty good stats - IF - you enable them from the lobby. If provides BB/100 and other useful stats, you can also look up session stats and recall individual hands as well.
Although the risks may seem greater in a tourney (ie: folding a $200 call in a tourney vs $4 on the turn at a ring table) the same principles apply. If I am not going to risk $200 in the tourney why would I throw away $4 at a ring table which is of course my real money.
I hope this analogy makes sense to you as it does to me.
200 in a tourny isn't the same as 200 IRL (in real life) its about the long run, and about the Big Bets, not the $ dollars.
First limit tourny i played at was $5 at paradise, i won 2nd place...i've never played since. The only tournies I play are live, with friends and such. I'm more of a cash player.
I am obviously aware that the $$ amounts are not the same. Often at ring tables I see people chasing pots. My thinking is that I would bet that those same people wouldn't chase them as much in a limit tournament because they risk losing so many chips.
I think that most people chase at ring tables is because it's only $4 and they feel it's really not that big a deal. As we all know those $4 losses chasing pots can accumulate pretty quickly.
All I am saying is that these limit tournaments have changed my game from a loose and somewhat passive game to a more patient player. As well I find myself raising in good position instead of limping in with garbage hoping to catch a good flop.
I strongly believe playing in these limit tournaments are helping my game. We'll have to see how it translates next time I go to Brantford and play at a live limit table.
My next concern is how this is going to affect my no limit game...for the guys that play a lot of limit, do you find it hard to switch gears when going into a no limit tournament?