Classifying Opponents
This goes out to some of the more experience players and guys who are trying to take the game very seriously. (No offense intended here)
I've been doing some work on my game and have been very impressed with my progress but with advancement comes uncertainty, or the more you learn the more you realize you don't know jack.
I have been concentrating on using mannerism and reading skills and classifying players. In my research I have found some different ways to classify. Weak-tight, loose or tight and the corresponding passive aggressive. Now I have even found "Loose Passive Passive" which then goes into how the play is broken up pre-flop and after the flop.
So heres the discussion topic. How do you guys classify players and how much stake do you put into your assessments? Paul Phillips (computer math nerd genius) said once in an interview "you can know all the odds and percentages, but every once in a while you just have to ask does he have it."
I don't like to give away too much info on my game but for the sake of the forum I will. My classifications are LP, TP, LA and TA (loose passive, Tight Aggressive etc etc)... but I open up these two questions in every situation where I refer to my assessment of the player.... "does he have the hand he's representing (or slow playing) and "how is he playing right now" meaning is he playing the game he usually does which earned him that title initially. For example is my opponent on the tail end of a long session, has he been constantly drawn out on, has he been drinking, is he more concerned about picking up the cocktail waitress and his game is less important, or is he absolutely on fire, his "A" game, is he just on a heater and can't miss????
If I were Mike Caro I would assign a $ value per hour to the accuracy of the information I gained but I'm not and I have no idea how valuable or invaluable this information is or even if I am making the right plays based on the information I have gathered or various players.
SO I ask anyone with advanced abilities to comment. What do you do what are your basis for tagging a player with a certain style, do you vary your assessments by game style? do you change your assessments based on the situation that is current (as Roy Cooke would say)????
I open the floor to all!
:as
I've been doing some work on my game and have been very impressed with my progress but with advancement comes uncertainty, or the more you learn the more you realize you don't know jack.
I have been concentrating on using mannerism and reading skills and classifying players. In my research I have found some different ways to classify. Weak-tight, loose or tight and the corresponding passive aggressive. Now I have even found "Loose Passive Passive" which then goes into how the play is broken up pre-flop and after the flop.
So heres the discussion topic. How do you guys classify players and how much stake do you put into your assessments? Paul Phillips (computer math nerd genius) said once in an interview "you can know all the odds and percentages, but every once in a while you just have to ask does he have it."
I don't like to give away too much info on my game but for the sake of the forum I will. My classifications are LP, TP, LA and TA (loose passive, Tight Aggressive etc etc)... but I open up these two questions in every situation where I refer to my assessment of the player.... "does he have the hand he's representing (or slow playing) and "how is he playing right now" meaning is he playing the game he usually does which earned him that title initially. For example is my opponent on the tail end of a long session, has he been constantly drawn out on, has he been drinking, is he more concerned about picking up the cocktail waitress and his game is less important, or is he absolutely on fire, his "A" game, is he just on a heater and can't miss????
If I were Mike Caro I would assign a $ value per hour to the accuracy of the information I gained but I'm not and I have no idea how valuable or invaluable this information is or even if I am making the right plays based on the information I have gathered or various players.
SO I ask anyone with advanced abilities to comment. What do you do what are your basis for tagging a player with a certain style, do you vary your assessments by game style? do you change your assessments based on the situation that is current (as Roy Cooke would say)????
I open the floor to all!
:as
Comments
Yeesh. Here's a tip: If everyone held back info about thier games, there'd be no forum.
Anyway, you need to open up your descriptions to deal with post-flop behavours. Calling Station/Maniac/Idiot..
Probably a good way to kill some time at the table if they don't let you wear headphones, but it's just pointless busywork.
After reading this post, I want to you tell you to stop reading the books and play more hands.
Furthermore, players that don't enter a lot of hands need to do something during the hands they are not involved in. And if you are even remotely tight you should not be playing that many hands. While normally I disagree with headphones (cause you miss sooo much information) staying interested in something keeps you from 'wanting' to get into action. I'd much rather try to understand my enemies then hear my favorite tune. If I make only one key decision in a 6 hour 10-20 session that earns me a pot of $100 by check raising a tight player off his ace king on a turn scare card (based on information I've gathered on him during the session) I may have just pushed my hourly rate higher than expected which can make all the difference in a seesion.
So while some may think this is way to theoretical I think it is fundemental to become a great player.
ABC poker will only get you so far. And while guys who only play hands and don't do their homework or don't review and evaluate their game are missing some big bets.
Anyone else have anything to contribute?
I'm actually surprised to see anyone post. More experienced? Not me. Maybe next time!
All I meant to do was to get some real serious thoughts on the psychology side of the game.
I'm just trying to keep this on a higher level then counting outs.
I wouldn't say you're way off base, but the scope of the question (as I understand it) is staggering.
My basis is through what I've observed the player to do in similar situations in the past. Do I vary my play based on his game style? Of course. It's basic poker to gauge what your opponents are apt to do. If you played every player the exact same way, then obviously there would be no point in trying to classify what type of player they are. Do you count on a calling station to bet so you can check-raise him? I hope not. Do you call a maniac on the river in a big pot for one bet with a modest hand. Yup. Do you call a rock in the same hand if he's been betting hard the whole way? You probably shouldn't even be at the river unless you had a draw and correct odds to chase.
I think I have a better feel then a computer as to what the guys playing like. For instance if two guys are fighting in the chat box, if one guy is annoying the other players trying to increase action... if a guy isn't playing hands does that necessarily mean he is getting crap cards or is he playing ultra tight.
I usually wait the first 30 minutes or so before I start adjusting any style to the type of game I'm in. This gives me approx two full rounds of every player and I get to see who is playing how. Poker tracker will give you their life time stats against you and how many times thy raise, call, fold etc but does that mean anything in the current situation??? I think there is a lot more to find out other than he raised pre flop 20 time last session.
:as
Haha, when I read this I heard "Use the Force Luke!"
Quite frankly, yes. Your point on tilt is a very good one though. Knowing when a player is playing erratically is key. But in general you can make some very good generalizations about the player type from his numbers (VPIP, PFR, post-flop AF, win at SD%, etc.) I think one of the most important things you can learn is the pre and post-flop aggression disparity of certain players (which you might miss if not paying 100% attention). If the most passive post-flop calling station in the world 3 bets you on the flop (even if he's a preflop maniac), you can be sure it's not some sort of semi-bluff attempt. I use this info primarily when I'm multi-tabling when paying attention to 3 or 4 tables just isn't really possible.
You're missing out. If ONLY for the ease of record keeping of your own wins/losses, the software is worth it (let alone the opponent profiling, hand review uses).