Brantford Report
The board is kinda dead, so I'd figured i'd just throw in my report from last night. Actual content is listed by ***.
If anyone of you were playing last nite and might have seen me, I was a young kid, glasses, with a long-sleeve t-shirt on with "Drunkn Monkey" on it.
So I arrived at Brantford around 3:00 P.M.(much later than I anticipated).
I immediately got on the waiting list for 5/10 and played $5 progressive blackjack to kill the time. After 30-45 minutes, I finally got in and got seated. I bought in for $500. First two hands I got :ad :qd and :ac :kh, raised it up, and had to fold to a ragged flop. The table was quite talkitive and friendly, but way too tight/selective for my choosing. There was one regular from Oakville that loves to joke around with the dealer and give great action, but he went on meal break shortly after I sat down.
The only time that the table got action was when this one older guy (early-to-mid 40's) in ripped jean shorts who talked non-sense kept raising with middle pair or something. Unfortunately I never got any hands to take money off him. Anyways, he went broke and I was stuck at a table with tight players. After two hours or so, I was still at $500 and decided to get a table change.
The new table was quite nice. Three young guys and a player that just learned how to play the game. I got dealt :8s :8h UTG and decided to raise it. The new player and BB called. Board came: :8c :10h x x :jd. I checked the flop, and bet out on the turn and river. New guy called and raised the river. I knew he didn't have TT or JJ, but I accidentally threw out $10 when I intended to raise. Oh well. New guy showed :ts :js and MHIG.
Deck was kinda cold for me and I had built up to around $600 when I was dealt :qd :10d in the BB with 5 limpers. Board came :qh :qs :kh. I bet out and got one caller. Turn was a blank and I fired out again to get raised. I gave him credit, and announced to check in the dark. River was a :10c, Villain bet, I raised, he 3-bet, and I called. He showed :kc :ks before I even got to show my boat. I for the life of me couldn't put the limper on Pocket Kings.
***They changed decks, and a conversation broke out about how one played would raise ANY ace. About three people agreed that it was the right thing to do, and I and two others strongly disagreed. I even revealed that I would fold AJo. The three said that it was insane, and the two kinda shrugged their shoulders. *** - Do you guys feel that the way that Brantford is played (5-6 to a flop) that AJo is a marginal hand, or do you feel that I should be playing it much more? ****
Play resumed, and I was still stuck even at $500 after a few hours. The very last hand at that table, I was dealt :kc :ks in the SB. 3 callers, and I raised. All call and flop comes :ad :4c :7s. I lead out, one call, and one raise. At this point, the girl told me that my seat was available in the $10/$20 (since I was tired of breaking even at $5/$10). I got up and folded exposing my Pocket Kings. The dealer yelled at me for exposing the hand and the young guys yelled at me and said "Are you crazy? You're folding Pocket Kings?". Anyways the turn was a blank and the two still in gave some good action. I had my chips racked and was leaving when the :kh hit the river. The table just erupted in a loud "oooooooooooooooooooooooh". One guy showed :4h :4d for trip 4's and the other mucked (I presume an Ace). *** - Do people in Brantford honestly value Pocket pairs this much that they are willing to call down with overcards showing and a raise to them? ****
I sit down at the $10/$20. The players look like they know what they are doing. I don't get involved for the first few hands. A really really tall guy cracking jokes with the dealer directly across him is raising a lot of the pots. I finally get dealt a decent hand with :js :qs and NAIL a flop of :8s :9h :ts. I bet out and get two calls. The turn is a :6d. BB leads out, 1 fold, and I raise. River is another :6h. Checked to me, I bet, and get called.
I picked up a few small pots here and there for the next hour. I witnessed one hand where a good tight player to my right was betting out on a flop of :qd :10c :9s. Tall guy called. Turn was a blank, and the tall guy check-raised. The way he did it basically screamed out the made straight to me and probably to the other guy as well, but he reluctantly called. The river brought another :qh to give the player to my right Q's full of tens with a 4 outer. The tall guy looked genuinely displeased. I don't know why, but that hand really stuck out to me for some reason.
Anyways, it was approaching 11:00, and I was ready to leave soon. I get dealt :ts :js UTG and limp in. UTG+2 raises it, there's two cold callers, and I call as well. The flop came :jh :jc :7h. I checked, UTG+2 bet, two calls, I raised, UTG+2 3-bets, 2 folds, I call. Turn came :10c for the nuts. I bet, he called. River was blank. Bet, call. I took down that nice pot and decided to call it a night, although I wonder if I should have checked that turn for a check-raise.
So... basically a buy-in of $500 turned into $710 in chips (with about $15 spent on drinks and tips). Gas cost $50 to get to and from Brantford to London giving me a net profit of $160.
If anyone of you were playing last nite and might have seen me, I was a young kid, glasses, with a long-sleeve t-shirt on with "Drunkn Monkey" on it.
So I arrived at Brantford around 3:00 P.M.(much later than I anticipated).
I immediately got on the waiting list for 5/10 and played $5 progressive blackjack to kill the time. After 30-45 minutes, I finally got in and got seated. I bought in for $500. First two hands I got :ad :qd and :ac :kh, raised it up, and had to fold to a ragged flop. The table was quite talkitive and friendly, but way too tight/selective for my choosing. There was one regular from Oakville that loves to joke around with the dealer and give great action, but he went on meal break shortly after I sat down.
The only time that the table got action was when this one older guy (early-to-mid 40's) in ripped jean shorts who talked non-sense kept raising with middle pair or something. Unfortunately I never got any hands to take money off him. Anyways, he went broke and I was stuck at a table with tight players. After two hours or so, I was still at $500 and decided to get a table change.
The new table was quite nice. Three young guys and a player that just learned how to play the game. I got dealt :8s :8h UTG and decided to raise it. The new player and BB called. Board came: :8c :10h x x :jd. I checked the flop, and bet out on the turn and river. New guy called and raised the river. I knew he didn't have TT or JJ, but I accidentally threw out $10 when I intended to raise. Oh well. New guy showed :ts :js and MHIG.
Deck was kinda cold for me and I had built up to around $600 when I was dealt :qd :10d in the BB with 5 limpers. Board came :qh :qs :kh. I bet out and got one caller. Turn was a blank and I fired out again to get raised. I gave him credit, and announced to check in the dark. River was a :10c, Villain bet, I raised, he 3-bet, and I called. He showed :kc :ks before I even got to show my boat. I for the life of me couldn't put the limper on Pocket Kings.
***They changed decks, and a conversation broke out about how one played would raise ANY ace. About three people agreed that it was the right thing to do, and I and two others strongly disagreed. I even revealed that I would fold AJo. The three said that it was insane, and the two kinda shrugged their shoulders. *** - Do you guys feel that the way that Brantford is played (5-6 to a flop) that AJo is a marginal hand, or do you feel that I should be playing it much more? ****
Play resumed, and I was still stuck even at $500 after a few hours. The very last hand at that table, I was dealt :kc :ks in the SB. 3 callers, and I raised. All call and flop comes :ad :4c :7s. I lead out, one call, and one raise. At this point, the girl told me that my seat was available in the $10/$20 (since I was tired of breaking even at $5/$10). I got up and folded exposing my Pocket Kings. The dealer yelled at me for exposing the hand and the young guys yelled at me and said "Are you crazy? You're folding Pocket Kings?". Anyways the turn was a blank and the two still in gave some good action. I had my chips racked and was leaving when the :kh hit the river. The table just erupted in a loud "oooooooooooooooooooooooh". One guy showed :4h :4d for trip 4's and the other mucked (I presume an Ace). *** - Do people in Brantford honestly value Pocket pairs this much that they are willing to call down with overcards showing and a raise to them? ****
I sit down at the $10/$20. The players look like they know what they are doing. I don't get involved for the first few hands. A really really tall guy cracking jokes with the dealer directly across him is raising a lot of the pots. I finally get dealt a decent hand with :js :qs and NAIL a flop of :8s :9h :ts. I bet out and get two calls. The turn is a :6d. BB leads out, 1 fold, and I raise. River is another :6h. Checked to me, I bet, and get called.
I picked up a few small pots here and there for the next hour. I witnessed one hand where a good tight player to my right was betting out on a flop of :qd :10c :9s. Tall guy called. Turn was a blank, and the tall guy check-raised. The way he did it basically screamed out the made straight to me and probably to the other guy as well, but he reluctantly called. The river brought another :qh to give the player to my right Q's full of tens with a 4 outer. The tall guy looked genuinely displeased. I don't know why, but that hand really stuck out to me for some reason.
Anyways, it was approaching 11:00, and I was ready to leave soon. I get dealt :ts :js UTG and limp in. UTG+2 raises it, there's two cold callers, and I call as well. The flop came :jh :jc :7h. I checked, UTG+2 bet, two calls, I raised, UTG+2 3-bets, 2 folds, I call. Turn came :10c for the nuts. I bet, he called. River was blank. Bet, call. I took down that nice pot and decided to call it a night, although I wonder if I should have checked that turn for a check-raise.
So... basically a buy-in of $500 turned into $710 in chips (with about $15 spent on drinks and tips). Gas cost $50 to get to and from Brantford to London giving me a net profit of $160.
Comments
For the love of god, don't get involved in discussions about the proper way to play at the table unless it is to re-enforce negative behaviour.
Ok.. Let me get this straight. You start a thread asking about 2-5 brantford poker.. sit in a 5-10 game.. and then move up to 10/20? You are doomed.
Why do you believe I'm doomed? The first time I went to a B+M, was 2-5 Brantford poker. It's not that this was what my bankroll limits were, it was that I don't wanna jump in the deep end. I am a quick learner, and started to move up by the limits.
I'm following the 300+ BB bankroll rule, and I don't think I'm that weak of a player, so I'm quite curious as to why you think I'm doomed?
Because:
You don't understand the underlying math of the game.
You don't understand that your profit comes from players mistakes.
You don't understand that you don't want to play with "good" players.
You don't understand that you don't want to make "big laydowns" in big pots.
You expose your hand while other players still have active hands
You focus on short term results
You raise 88 UTG, make your monster hand and check the flop.
You believe you are a 'quick learner' and implicity better than anyone else at the table.
I do understand the math of the game. You do not yet understand my concept.
Of course you can make profits from player's mistakes. BUT the players don't mistakes when they have HUGE pot odds to call.
That's such a rediculous comment. Of course I don't want to play against Phil Ivey, but I do want to play against players that ACTUALLY THINK and can make a fold.
Why wouldn't you make a big laydown in a big pot? If you don't have the proper odds to call, don't call. It's that simple.
WHEN have I focused on short term results? I'm saying that not most people BRING the full proper 300BB's and won't be able to rebuy making them shortstacked with a few bad beats.
Yes I raised UTG to try and isolate the new player. Since I was way ahead and I didn't put him on a ten (and if he did, I believe he would have bet it), I checked.
How the hell does saying "I learn quickly" imply that I think that I'm better than everyone else?
Read a book. Come back when you are ready to learn. In your current state, you won't win.
I'm sorry, but WHO THE HELL do you think you are? To come out of nowhere and treat me like I'm a losing player is just absurd.
I have a very decent winning rate playing at some of the toughest limits I don't even think you could handle. Just what gives you the authority to talk down to me like this?
oh yeah, and stuff like revealing your hand while its still going on, or trying to teach ppl at your table how to play is just stupid...this isnt about showing off
I do respect people's opinions. I am just curious as to which hands that I posted you had trouble with. Obviously I didn't play perfect, but I'm not going to post standard hands.
And my actions weren't mean to "show-off", but rather just have fun and be social with the table that I was at.
Both the AKo and AQs hand you said you "had to fold to a ragged flop" without an idea of pot size, player types, and the specific texture of the flop, hard to say if these are bad laydowns or not, but at face value sounds weak-tight.
I don't like raising 88 UTG. You said you did it to isolate vs. a weak player. Huh? You're UTG. How are you intending to isolate since you have no idea the action behind you? I favor betting that flop (you hit your hand and there's draws that can hurt you if you give a free card).
The QTs hand frankly I would have lost more on. You said you couldn't put him on KK, but why are you calling then? You specifically could put that guy on KQ or KK? and not AQ, or AJ there? I'd have capped the turn.
Good laydown with the KK, but not overly difficult given the board. (Against a frequent bluffer it might be).
The JTs limp UTG limp is marginal, but OK if the table is loose-passive. Not a fan if it's tight and aggressive though (I don't want to play that hand OOP in a small pot vs. raiser).
In general, I don't find your play to be THAT bad. But I found a few disturbing comments that suggest you might not have a good grasp of variance. For instance:
Where do you "expect" to be after a few hours? Up 500? Yes it can happen, but LLHE is a grind, a couple hours in a casino is nothing (sometimes you don't even see a playable hand in that span). Break even isn't the end of the world. What's your rush?
Pardon? Of course they do, but you seem to fail to realize where they are making their mistakes. It's true that in big pots, people can be justified in calling a bet with a slim draw post-flop due to the pot odds, but these players have likely already committed a major mistake in paying multiple bets to see the flop.
You answered the question yourself. Because it's a BIG pot.
Really? This sounds awfully like "I can't beat this game becuase the players are so bad". If you can't beat bad players what makes you think you can beat players that won't pay you off with your good hands, and will frequently push you off hands because they know you're weak.
As far as the exposed hand, I agree with what the others have said as to why you shouldn't do it, but I'll throw in another. Do you really want bad players to know you're capable of a "big fold"? By giving them this info, I'd guess it's more likely people are going to take extra shots at you with marginal hands, and when you DO raise, they should have an easier time letting hands go, since you're only going to be raising the nuts or near it. Don't give them this free info.
Personally, I really hated the 88 play. I think the play only works when you have an aggressive preflop image. IE you've been raising a lot of hands so people won't give you credit for anything. When you have that image, you've gotta pound your bets in with those monsters. It's no time to get fancy.
The flop seems like should be an autobet whether you make your hand or not.. You want to represent a big pocket or top pair..
EDIT:
and because I can't resist..
All I can do is comment on the information you present to me. I can't base an opinion on information I dont have. Based on what I read, I think you have fundamental problems in your game and your attitude to the game that need fixing.
I do find it funny that you think I'm coming out of nowhere.. I've been around here for quite a long time..
For some reason this exchange reminds me of the scene from Goodfellas where Pesci shoots Spider in the foot. Spider comes back, all bandaged up, and Pesci starts needling him. Spider tells Pesci to go fuck himself. DeNiro laughs and says "attaboy Spider, don't take no shit from nobody."
Attaboy, keeth_BR.Â
I believe you are probably forum member number 6 or possibly 7 to ask BBC that question, or one like it. It's a very elite group, and welcome to it. I'll PM you the details about the secret handshake, etc. Eventually, as you read more and more of BBC's posts, your annoyance with him will turn into something approximating respect, as you realize that he's not a 'troll'; he's just blunt. I've seen it happen time and time again, just like the rising and the setting of the sun.
As for the actual playing of the hands, I have no opinion as I only skimmed this thread, but felt the uncontrollable desire to chime in on this point, grinning like a moron from ear to ear. It's good to be back... between moving (and consequently being without internet service for a while) and not being able to access the board once I got the internet service, I've been out of touch for a while. What a way to come back, ROFLMAO.
Remember Pesci shoots Spider dead 3 seconds later.
I hate to say that I agree with BBCZ, but I do. I won't comment much further after Scooby's comments, they are bang on.
The 88 play..bet the flop. Why check when there are draws on board. Also by not giving what the third river card is and the turn it makes it even hard to understand the play.
The KK...just to be picky but there was only one over card..not over cards.
Last thing,
That's why you say "raise" and not just throw out chips silently. It's plays like this and the exposing KK while play is in action that make you look like an amateur (even though you may not be one, I don't know you). Odds are one of the players had a king and folded it after you exposed. Not fair for the guy holding the 4s. His pot could have been bigger.
I'm folding AK and AQ everytime on a ragged board when there's action going. Although it's true that I'm 7:1 to hit one of my overs, how many players in LLHE play Ax or Kx. If x has already hit a pair, then I'm in much more trouble than I can handle.
I did raise 88 UTG to isolate the weak player. I had a very tight image at the table at that time and they were starting to give me respect all but the one player. It did work as the other players before him quickly folded. Now... when I hit my set, There are no real draws except for 9J or 79. I think you guys must be confused by CARD, CARD, x where x is a rag card. There was no real cards that could hurt me on the turn, so I let him catch up.
You can't just stop giving a guy respect. I definitely ruled out KK, but QJ, QK, or QA was a definite possibility. I checked in the dark planning to just call unimproved or raise the river if I hit my ten as I was beating 2 out of the 3 hands that I put him on.
The TJs hand I did misplay. I'm not going to lie about it. That's why I posted it. I have a certain fascination with it and I shouldn't. Once I limped, I believed I played it fine though.
I did not expect to be up big and I did not expect to be down big. My expecting earning rate is about 1-2BB/hr. I'm not saying that I was disappointed at where I was at, just that I did not like the swings.
I think I've already admitted that they made the mistake coming in in the first place. But after that, their actions are justified by pot odds making it very difficult to move around.
I answered this with my own answer in a previous post which was "if you do not have the proper odds to call, fold". You can't say that I answered it myself while excluding my whole answer.
I'm not saying I can't beat the game because of it, it's just not my style to play this way where my actions are basically limited to playing the percentages and trying to catch cards.
I folded/exposed them when it was my last hand at that table, and I thought that he was taking the pot down when I folded. I'll admit that it wasn't the proper thing to do since there was one player that was still involved.
I'll respect people's opinions, but you basically responded with meaningless insults with no reasoning.
It does not matter how long you have been around this forum. If I'm not mistaken, I believe this is a place to come together and contribute to poker players in Canada and the game in general.
Responses like "You're doomed" and "Read a book before you get to me" are not informative and have no real place here. If you had said WHY you felt that I was doomed and whatnot, then that would be a totally different situation.
That's like responding to a person posting a hand for comments on streets and you answer with "Horribly played".
Based on what I have read, I believe you have social fundamental problems while living out a quiet life of desparation by the fact that you come to log-on to a forum just to throw out useless insults to the "inferior" players.
Actually, while BBC_Z is the most blunt, you've had a number of responses to this post and your other post that basically all say you need to improve your game so you can beat weak players. Since your original post, most of your responses (barring the fun semi-flamewar with BBC_Z) seem to be along the lines of "it's not my fault ... it's the bad players". You posted your hands for analysis and got some good advice (from players a bit better and more experienced than I) - now you can choose what to do with it. Either way, I've learned a bit from this, whether you have or not.
Just my 2 cents - but keep up the flames ... very entertaining
"I'll respect people's opinions, but you basically responded with meaningless insults with no reasoning."
And then respond with this:
"I believe you have social fundamental problems while living out a quiet life of desparation by the fact that you come to log-on to a forum just to throw out useless insults to the "inferior" players."
If you can't see how hypocritical that is, then you have bigger problems than poker.
You asked for opinions, if you don't like them too bad.............don't ask again.
I think I'm starting to understand what you're getting at. I think you'd be more suited to play NL than limit poker. The games are fundamentally different. I don't know how many times I've heard people bitch about limit poker and how it's all luck and that you can't protect hands, etc. The problem is these players don't understand the game. That's the nature of limit, your profit comes over the long term not the short term. Consistancy, patience and discipline are vital. Fancy plays, big laydowns and big bluffs simply aren't (especially at low-limit). If you want a game that allows you room to make big bluffs, protect your hands, etc., play no-limit. But a word of warning: Don't expect the variance to be less. People will still hit miracle cards, and quite frankly it will hurt MORE than it would in a limit game when they do hit their ridiculous draws. Instead of losing one bet, you'll lose your entire stack.
your playing the wrong game if this is your philosophy.
regardless of the poker variant (holdem, omaha, 7card stud, draw) structure (limit, pot limit, nl) or stakes (1cent/2cent all the way up to 1000/2000) ...if you are not limiting your action to making plays in which the percentages favor you to catch favorable cards (keys cards when your drawing, blanks when your ahead)...you are destined to lose.
simply because all of poker is a drawing game. you are drawing to become the best, and when you have the best, you are drawing to stay the best. everybody is trying to catch cards...its just that when your ahead, there are a lot more favorable cards to catch. dont think just in terms of...oh he caught his two outer...think also...damn, i missed my 45outer.
Well put. I'll certainly have to concede that point.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/poker_1?view=uk
Luckily we do have no-limit holdem, which is, in fact, a metal rod with a handle, used for prodding and stirring an open fire. For a minute there, I was starting to wonder how I was ever going to get this fire going.
Finally, the true nature of PokerForum.ca is revealed!
And, now that I think about it even further, it is true that limit holdem often keeps me away from the gym...
ScottyZ
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Texas_Hold_Em
Nuts: A hand so good that I have your nuts in a vice and can slowly squeeze. Metaphorically speaking, you can also have the nuts against a woman, but that's generally not so good because the woman will suck out and crack your nuts.
confused
what are you, marcel luske? what is this, phill hellmuth day?
I agree with Acidjoe.... As he always tells me... I want to play against you... I call it EASY MONEY..... I am in call us when you go play... besides I need a good laugh once in awhile..
What was this guy smoking?
It was worth digging a 2 month old flame-fest out of the archives simply to get another look at that Uncyclopedia entry for Texas Holdem.
LOL
ScottyZ