Newbie Brantford Questions.
Okay, so last Thursday, a friend and I made our first trip to Brantford (from London). After I lost $200 on Blackjack (after my friend hit on 15 against dealer's 5), we finally were called for the poker room.
I fell in love with it, but kinda felt out of place. I'll be making weekly visits for $5/$10, So I have a few questions if you guys wouldn't mind answering.
a) What is the purpose of those cards that I seen people giving to the suits? Is there a benefit of me getting one, and if so, how do I get one?
b) What are the general tipping guidelines for i) dealers and ii) waitresses?
c) How do you switch tables? I wanted to play at a different table, as mine was starting to play No-Fold-Em. A problem was that the only open table at the limit I was playing had my friend on there, and not that we were going to collude, but I don't know what the rules about that are.
d) Can someone give me the shortest way to get there from north-London? I went by the 401, to the 403, but it seemed MUCH quicker on the way back with no turn-offs.
e) Do they always play No-Fold-Em? Do they always get mad when you take down a pot with 23 suited in a 7-way pot when you're on the button?
f) What kind of swings have people experienced at the 5/10 tables and what should my buy-in be? (I like to bring $500. Too high/low?)
Thanks in advance.
I fell in love with it, but kinda felt out of place. I'll be making weekly visits for $5/$10, So I have a few questions if you guys wouldn't mind answering.
a) What is the purpose of those cards that I seen people giving to the suits? Is there a benefit of me getting one, and if so, how do I get one?
b) What are the general tipping guidelines for i) dealers and ii) waitresses?
c) How do you switch tables? I wanted to play at a different table, as mine was starting to play No-Fold-Em. A problem was that the only open table at the limit I was playing had my friend on there, and not that we were going to collude, but I don't know what the rules about that are.
d) Can someone give me the shortest way to get there from north-London? I went by the 401, to the 403, but it seemed MUCH quicker on the way back with no turn-offs.
e) Do they always play No-Fold-Em? Do they always get mad when you take down a pot with 23 suited in a 7-way pot when you're on the button?
f) What kind of swings have people experienced at the 5/10 tables and what should my buy-in be? (I like to bring $500. Too high/low?)
Thanks in advance.
Comments
A -EV play, unless the hi-lo count is outrageously negative. It seems that your friend needs the good old basic strategy card.
It is a common fallacy to believe that your friend (if playing 3rd base) "took the dealer's bust card".
I think you mean the Winner's Circle card. It's for tracking your play in terms of getting comps. A mere 30 hour poker session at the $10-$20 will probably score you a nice sandwich.
i)Tip what you like. Some people never tip, others tip every hand they win. In the latter case, $1 is typical. The odd person tips per hour or per session.
Last time I checked, tips in the poker room are pooled with the tips from the enitre casino and split among all of the dealers in the entire casino. Tipping or not tipping one particular dealer that you like or dislike is irrelevant.
ii) Again, tip what you like. $1 is typical, as is rounding up by ~$1 if your drink costs something. I don't know if or how wait-staff tips are pooled.
On a related note, Brantford now has self-serve coffee and tea machines. This brings the effective cost of their coffee (i.e. free instead of $1) closer in line with its fair value.
Ask a floor person (ideally the one who currently has the waiting list with them) for a "table change". Tell them your name, what limit your playing at, what table your playing at, and (if you have a specific preference) which table you'd like to move to.
To switch limits, put your name on the waiting list for the limit(s) you want to play, and make them aware that you are already playing (and what table you're at). That way, they will find you at your table instead of you having to listen for a PA call.
There is nothing wrong with playing at the same table as your friend, as long as you are playing "normally". The reality is that actual collusion is so hard to detect that it makes being falsely detected as colluding almost impossible.
Speak to a floor-person about it if you feel like you are taking unfair heat about it from players and/or dealers, but realize that some players are so bad that they will look for ANY excuse to explain why they are losing. I have been accused of collusion several times, both online and B&M, always coming from a horrible player, and always when I was involved in a hand with another horrible player (who I did not know) who had played the hand in a bizzare manner.1
401 & 403 is probably best. Being in the north part of London, the key for you would be avoiding London city driving as best as possible. Possibly Fanshawe Park to Clarke and then scootching over to Airport Road might work.
It's sometimes a mixed bag at the 5-10, but, yes, it's often very loose.
$500 is a sensible buy-in. To insure against having to go home before I wanted to, I'd be sure I had access to (either bring, or have readily available at the ATM) at least $1,000.
ScottyZ
1As is typical of horrible players.
why would you want to switch tables if they're playing no fold'em?
Because I'd much rather be at a table where I can get dominating mis-matches with like :as :ks against :ad :10c.
I didn't come to play Bingo.
If your $5-$10 opponents don't suck, you're going to have a tough time beating the house drop.
ScottyZ
Hmm... I somewhat agree, but still think that it's "Bingo". Given the pot size, it's almost statistically correct for players to call down with bottom or middle pair. With this being true, larger swings are bound to happen. With the average buy-in only being around 25BB, that doesn't sound like a +EV table.
Possibly, but don't forget the vast difference between a value bet with the best hand, and a call (even if a correct one) with the worst hand.
If you bet $5 and your opponent calls you (again, even if it is a correct call) as a 4 to 1 dog, your $5 bet generates an immediate positive expectation of +$3 against this particular opponent regardless of the pot size.1
I definitely agree that low-limit poker is a high variance game.
Bingo, actually, is not a high variance game, due to wins at bingo being so infrequent. A bingo player's bankroll movements are composed almost entriely of gradually downward sloping line segments. A low-limit poker player's bankroll bounces around like crazy.
Since bingo (under normal circumstances) is also a -EV game, there is not really a good analogy between bingo and low-limit poker in terms of either expectation or variance.2
ScottyZ
1The fact that this opponent will sometimes fold or raise (provided that the raise does not induce you to fold the best hand at some point) makes your bet even more profitable than this.
2That is, if you are a +EV low-limit poker player.
Sounds like you don't understand poker. You are probably better of staying away from casinos until you do.
Are you serious? You make two replies to my thread and they are both insults?
At least give me reasoning.
Let's break some of this down then, shall we?
Here's a realistic Brantford scenario:
For example: You have :js :jc and raise. 4 people call.
P1 = :9c :10d, P2 = :ah :9s, P3 = :jh :ks, P4 = :qd :8d Typical cards (from what I've seen).
Already you're less than 25% to win with 5 people.
Say this is a $5/$10 table. So there's already $50 in the pot.
Let's be generous and say that the flop comes: :10h :8s :2c.
You bet out $5. There's two players with lower pairs. $5 to call. They're getting 11:1 with about 20% chance to win. They're getting VERY GOOD odds to call down.
Now... if you could isolate it where you get only these 2 callers.
You're 58% favourite to win pre-flop. There's $30 in the pot. They're getting 6:1 to call, but only 20% chance to win. They're getting slightly proper odds to call.
Obviously, in both situations, in the long run it's +EV. But in the short-run, all it takes is a couple losses and you're down the 25BB that you brought.
Now... in situation 1) They have the proper odds to call. Pot is big. There is no way that they are going to fold. Therefore, you leave it all up to luck.
Situation 1 = Call/Bet/Raise and hope it holds up = Bingo.
However in situation 2) They have slightly proper odds to call, BUT you have actual room to make moves and use the odds to your advantage.
Situation 2 = Manipulate the pot to give improper odds to drawing players = Poker.
Your rebuttal?
It sounds like you're describing "Bingo" as short-term results (affected more significantly by luck), and long-term results as "Poker". The fact that you may lose during a single session because of luck should not make you change your style of play.
BINGO. That's poker.
You have a pot equity edge. You put in 20% of the money with a 25% chance to win.
It's not a realistic scenario because you gave your opponents the third J and aren't including someone with a low pocket pair.
You win a large pot more often than they do. Thats profit.
The short-run is completely meaningless.
This crummy argument of "I can't win because I can't protect my hand" has already been refuted. What you completely ignore from your analysis is the mistake your opponents made my ENTERING THE POT IN THE FIRST PLACE. They gave you a ton of EV preflop and are now required to come from behind to win, while you sit in the lead the entire time..
You have even less of a clue how to play than I originally gave you credit for.
Proper betting DID NOT thin the field. Raises were still bringing along 4-5 players to the flop at the table I was at.
That's just a stupid comment. Just beause someone has a Jack, which they very well could, and because someone doesn't have a pocket pair, it's all of a sudden not realistic?
OF COURSE they're making a mistake entering a pot in the first place. I'm not ignoring that. AND you don't always sit in the lead the entire time because Bad play often goes undetected. For example, You have AA and 3-bet, it gets capped with 2 callers. Flop comes rags of 2 6 7. Someone holds 67s.
WE CAN GO ON AND ON ABOUT THIS. THE MAIN POINT IS THAT THERE IS NO ROOM TO MOVE IN THE TABLES THAT I DISCUSSED. YOU CANNOT CLEAN UP YOUR OUTS AND NOT ISOLATE. WITH SEMI-GOOD PLAYERS, YOU CAN. I WANT ROOM TO MOVE AS I FEEL THAT I CAN OUTPLAY THE VAST MAJORITY. IN THE TABLES THAT HAVE MANY LOOSE CALLERS, YOU ARE PLAYING THE PERCENTAGES. IN THE TABLES THAT DON'T, YOU ARE PLAYING THE GAME.
You are amazingly shortsighted.
This reply right here is almost as relevant as yours.
You are short sighted.
Yes, in this situation you lose. In the other 90% you win. Which is better? Losing $40 in this hand or winning $360 over the long run? Do I need to answer?
Don't take great offence to the comments. When you put your opinion out for the masses expect honest replies that disagree with you. Sometimes I think BBCZ is full of it and I'll tell him but I don't get angry. You aren't listening to what he is saying. Your short curt response is proof.
Everyone loses to bad beats and to hands that you'll say, "how could you have played that with a raise pre-flop???" You are just forgetting all the pots you do win where people muck and never show that crap they played to the river. You don't make all your money from "good laydowns" or fancy plays. You make a lot from bad players. I have a ton of hand historys to prove it.
Listen and learn. I have.
This is the last time that I'm going to reply to this thread. Either you're going to think that the way I want to play is more profitable for me or not.
My mission is to have a good time, while making a profit with minimal down-swings. Since I have more room to move and have the power to isolate, make bluffs, value bet, manipulate pot odds, and in general try to outplay semi-good players at higher limits who play logically in a sense, I believe I can turn a better profit without much risk.
so for me Logical $10/$20 > Crazy $5/$10.
You can try No Limit. You'll have more ability to "play the players" since this is what you seem to want to do. NL will have plenty of swings too, and has much more variance, but if you want people to fold when you have Jacks, it's easier to get them to do it.
Just keep in mind that one of the critical errors that Newbies2 make is moving up limits too soon because they don't think they can beat the bingo games. If your bankroll can stand it, go ahead and give it a try, but be prepare to get hammered. Just remember that a bad loss at 10/20 is more $ than a bad loss at 2/5.
I would STRONGLY recommend reading a poker book. Either Winning Low Limit Poker by Lee Jones, or Dave Scharf's book, Winning Poker. I do not think you are ready to understand the concepts in Ed Miller's Small Stakes Holdem, but that would definitely be the next step once you understand the simple concepts that these other books present.
1 Some would argue that casino rake at low limit is too high (especially in Ontario) to make the game beatable, but I believe that the extra bets in the pot from these players pushes the game back into a profitable game. You NEED THESE PLAYERS TO BE PUTTING MONEY IN THE POT to beat this game. Welcome them, embrace them (figuratively, not physically), you need these donkeys are your table.
2 Your thread title seems to indicate that you are a Newbie poker player, but as the thread goes on, you represent yourself as more and more experienced. I don't know where to put you at, but there are certainly some fundamental errors in your discussion. I would suggest that if you are not a newbie, that you start at the beginning and take another look at your poker theory.
"This is the last time that I'm going to reply to this thread."
Infantile.
As a number of people have said, poker is long term, can't you see the profitablility of winning consistently over losing once or twice?
Feel free not to respond.
Oh, I get it. So you are looking for a game where you never lose. I misunderstood. I thought were talking about real life and not your fantasy Gus Hansen lifestyle from TV. You will find chasers and weak players at all limits. Get a grip.
Next thing I know you're going to challenge BBC Z to a heads up game at 2:1 odds if he pays you first and you lose nothing. I miss Lee.
Re: the BR in your name.
main text: i hope it doesn't stand for BankRoll because you won't have much of it left soon.
advice for you: please play 0.25/0.50 online to learn how to play multiway pots; understand value betting; limit holdem is mostly a mechanical albiet technical game, if you are looking for something else, i suggest u play high-stakes yahtzee with your broke idol Gustav Hansen.
I agree that it is virtually impossible to beat the casino's rake long-term UNLESS you are lucky enough to have a table full of fish playing Bingo or No-Fold 'em. Since the OP's priority is to have a good time with minimal down-swings and miraculously not lose money,